CollectForFun

Final update! 2 weeks ago I received the fake coin back in the post, with a different envelope and a hand-written address. I have no idea how this made it's way back to me. Maybe returned to my previous house and the new occupant repackaged and posted to me?
I called PayPal to get the case re-opened stating it had turned up after being AWOL for a month, took hostage photos with the coin in front of The Times homepage with the day's date, and posted it back to the original sender with a hand drawn smiley face on a post-it.
Just got the full refund today from PayPal!!!! JUSTICE (and I'm actually up £100 from RM's refund and PayPal's feel-sorry-for-me pay-out)
The saga is finally over.
 

Daterun of:
20 Francs / 8 Florin Hungary / Austria
Minted every year from 1870-1891
Most mintages are about 300.000 per year.
Most of them were minted in Kremnitz, Skovakia (KB mintmark), and a few in Romania (GYF).
I am missing: 1873, 1879, 1886 and some variations. If anyone has one of them for sale or trade, please let me know.

These are not actually LMU spec coins but as its been referred to on this excellent thread before, here is the Montenegro 20 Perpera gold coin.
There are 2 versions of this denomination.
On the left, the commemorative issue coin to mark the 50 Anniversary of the Accession of King Nicola 1. Left facing laureate head portrait.
On the right, the standard circulation 20 Perpera distinguished by a right facing, bare head portrait. Reported mintages of both coins c. 30,000.
These are not in the finest condition but both coins are very hard to find now in any condition.
 
 

Lawrence,
I appreciate the questions, and will gladly provide more detail:
 
so when your bank or creidt card company gives you 5.75 back on your first $2500 = $143.75; do you really believe they are giving you this for nothing?
No. And I know where it comes from. It comes out of their marketing budget. The credit card is from Bank of America, and if you are one of the "Diamond Tier" members with Merrill Lynch (owned by BofA), they will give you a 75% bonus cash back on their standard 3% cash back for the first $2,500 every quarter. It's a way for them to generate more client revenue and bind the client closer to the overall banking relationship.
 
Later, you mention getting 2.5% cash back. Is this after the 5.75%? Who gives you the "cash back"? ebay, your bank, credit card company? you have not made this point clear.
This is for everything else, and has nothing to do with BofA and their "Diamond Tier" requirement - this one is available to anybody in the US without a cap. My standard credit card is a Wells Fargo Cash rewards card with unlimited 2% cash back plus 0.5% unlimited from Capital One Shopping on eBay. Yes, they work together. Here I am pretty sure that it comes out of the 2.75% fee that they charge the vendor.
 
Next, do you know what percentage premium you have been paying
Yes. About 2% over spot on my quarterly purchases and around 5% over spot on the others (for American Eagles).
I'll illustrate with a simple example: Spot is currently $1,745.
BGASC is currently the cheapest direct seller in the US at $1,845. That's 5.7% over spot, while Liberty Coin currently sells them for $1,884 on eBay. That's 8% premium over spot.
If I use eBay and pay for the coin with my BofA card and the Cap One App (for a total cash back of 5.75%) I end up paying $1,776. That's 1.8% over spot.
Anybody on eBay can use a 2% WF card and the Cap One App (for a total cash back of 2.50%) and end up paying just short of $1,840. That's 5.3% over spot.
Please share your view here. Is that too much? Where else should I look?
 
Did you leave negative feedback statiing clearly what happened? If not, why not?
Once eBay steps in and voids the entire transaction, you cannot leave feedback anymore. The purchase becomes nonexistent in your purchasing history. At least this one did.
And I am hesitant to mark the seller, as I am pretty sure that they had nothing to do with this. I had purchased from them 14 times in the past with no problems.
 
You indicated suspicious behaviour by your Fedex delivery driver. did you ever follow that up with Fedex, or the local police? If not, why not?
The local policed closed the file the minute I got reimbursed by eBay, because I don't have a loss anymore. They keep the record though and "collect more cases", as they put it.
Regarding FedEx, I did not have any contractual relationship with the carrier or any say regarding the selection of services. The carrier (FedEx) was selected and paid for by the seller. The contract is between them, I just have a claim against the seller. Both, the seller and eBay advised me that it would be the senders obligation to engage (and eventually sue) the carrier if an item gets lost. As the recipient, you can ask (!) them for information, but as soon as things get hairy, they become absolutely tight lipped. It's all between them and their customer (the seller) and the seller's insurance policy at that point.
 
A number of other question occur to me, but that's probably enough for now.
I am more than happy to answer whatever comes to your mind.
 
Martin

For the benefit of anybody ordering from eBay (in my case eBay US), I'd like to share my story and the resolution:
I order regularly on eBay, mostly 1oz Gold coins (preferably Eagles and Krugerrands). I started mainly because if use my credit card, it basically refunds me 5.75% of the first $2,500 every quarter, so that's how I gained my first experiences with buying on eBay. Over the last couple of years, I increased my buying on eBay successively and arrived at 100+ coins in deliveries ranging from $2k to $15k in value. Most were shipped USPS or FedEx with no problems ever, and since I purchased exclusively from the big sellers (Liberty, BullionExchange, DBS, etc.) all coins turned out to be real, at least that's what my Metalyzer Pro said. I grew confident that this way works for me.
Fast forward to May 2022, when I placed an order for 5 American Gold Eagles for just short of $10k through eBay with one of the previously mentioned large sellers. The seller was apparently changing around logistics, so the package did not leave their HQ in California, but was dispatched from a warehouse in Dallas TX and handed to FedEx. I followed the package to FedEx's Memphis sorting facility, when it suddenly went MIA for a day over the weekend. I didn't think much of that, and 24 hours later, the package re-arrived at the Memphis hub and was dispatched to my local sorting facility and out for delivery two days later.
When FedEx home delivered the package, it was "half-handed" to me by the driver, we both held on to a side each, while I was signing on his little gizmo, using the package as support. Once I had the package fully in had and turned it around, I saw that the other side of the package had been cut open at the filament sealing tape, and had been taped back shut with simple clear tape. I already knew what must have happened, so I took some photos and opened the package, which turned out empty. The FedEx truck was already gone by that time. Please note, I am not accusing anybody in particular, but either the seller's warehouse tampered with the package before shipping, or someone else did, while the package was in the carrier's possession. I am not judging which one is more likely, I am merely stating the two possibilities.
I called the seller who did not pick up the phone. So I immediately called eBay and opened a case with them. They were helpful and tried to calm me down, reiterating that I was protected by the eBay-Guarantee. The seller ultimately answered to my case in the eBay messaging system, requesting photos and eventually telling me to wait for one to two weeks until they get feedback from FedEx on an inquiry that they launched. I contacted eBay again and they told me I had to wait four days to give the seller time to find a resolution for me. I also asked if I should file a police report, and eBay support told me that this would not be necessary. I did not follow those instructions and reported the theft to our local Sheriff's office. Two detectives came out to collect the box and fingerprint it, and they also gave me a police report number and contact details. Of course, nothing happened from the sellers side, and I called eBay back after four (business) days. I was then told that they (eBay) would now escalate the case to their High Value Claims Group, a special group for these kind of cases. Their inquiry was going to take another four business days, they would have to investigate the buyer and seller for previous claims and the circumstances surrounding the claim.
I kept in touch with the High Value Claims Group every day, asking if they had found out anything, offering any help I could provide. One day before their deadline, a Supervisor in that group asked me if I had filed a police report. I told her that I did, even though the lower level eBay support told me previously that I did not have to. She said that the report was extremely helpful and took down the number and the contact details for the local Sheriff's Office and told me that she would call them and verify my claims. I waited for the four days to pass exactly, then I called eBay. Within half an hour, I had the woman from the High Value Claims Group calling me back, saying that she just hung up with the Sheriff's Office and she verified everything that had happened exactly as I had told her. They decided the case that very same day in my favor. I received a full refund from eBay to my credit card about 24 hours later. I never heard anything from the seller. My assumption is, that eBay "ate" the loss in the end, and I am probably blacklisted by the seller for future purchases (I haven't tried again since then).
What do we learn from this?
1) Inspect EVERY package on ALL sides BEFORE signing. Be religious about this. If it looks in any way suspicious, refuse to accept it, let it go back. Your risk BEGINS when you take possession of it (i.e. sign for it).
2) Take photos of high-value packages as they arrive, or even better a video of receiving and unpacking. eBay advised me to do so in the future.
3) The seller on eBay is not necessarily your friend. They may try and hang you out to dry over their investigation with the carrier. eBay is your advocate, they can make (and force) a decision in a case.
4) Immediately file a claim with eBay, not Paypal, not your Credit Card Company, not your bank. You can do so in a second step.
5) Right after, file a police report, no matter what eBay says. You are the victim of a crime, it's in your best interest.
6) Be proactive, be in eBay's face daily in a constructive way, offer any help you can provide, make sure they know you are the victim. Get to know the person that is handling your claim.
7) Try not to have a second loss (I am speculating here), they keep records of all this happening.
Final thought: The all-in-all 14 days it took to resolve this issue were no fun. While the end result is good, you may have a sleepless night on the way. I did not enjoy that. But eBay's Money-Back-Guarantee worked as promised and they did the right thing. Kudos and thanks for that to eBay. I luckily got my money back and have started to buy stuff on eBay again, although less valuable to begin with. My LCS is happy about that. But eBay knows that this buyer's trust is at the core of their business model, so I think that's why they in the end decided for the innocent buyer. Lastly, I still feel strange about someone "taking/stealing my stuff" somewhere, and it bugs me that some lowlife thief somewhere is running around with 5 Eagles of mine, probably feeling as cool as Clooney in Ocean's 11. I hate the feeling of being victimized. I am now completely OCD about getting packages directly from my mailman, and about checking anything from any carrier for signs of tampering.
I hope none of you ever has to go through this, but if you do, maybe my experience can help.
Martin
 
 
 

I got to say I would send back an empty capsule tracked.
I very much doubt paypal or ebay would care as to why you now have a different tracking number. They don't normally give a s**t.
You will then be able to tick all there boxes with a valid tracking number

This is such an amazing coin! I don't think it can be surpassed by any other from the 20 francs category. And also condition of the coin is great! Huge congratulations on this acquisition.
Having quickly checked recent auction archives it does not seem this coin was bought at an auction, or was it?
My only concern with grading this coin would be that those hairlines, mainly on the reverse, could be seen as a sign of cleaning and you get a details grade. Or if they determine that there are some marks from previous mounting (as many of these coins were mounted). But in any case, I don't think any potential imperfections affect the overall eye appeal too much which I am sure must be even better when holding the coin in hands!
By the way, I see no reason why these coins shouldn't have been minted in Venice directly.
(I hope you don't mind that I quoted your post within this thread...)

Hi - no, I don't mind at all! Those are great observations that you make. 
I think you're right with the hairlines, my gut tells me there is a good chance it would grade as details due to possible cleaning. Although having had the chance to really look this thing over, the eye appeal isn't impaired much at all. When buying raw coins of this age I personally assume always that I'll find some sign of cleaning if I study it closely. Unless its something truly mint state, and for this particular coin MS would be way too expensive for my budget!
You're right too about the mounting, but I've scoured over every inch of this coin and can find nothing that indicates a previous mount. So it's either so faint I missed it, or it was never mounted. Either way it works out to the same thing for my personal enjoyment of the coin 
And no, this coin wasn't from auction, it was from a coin dealer. Ironically, located in Canada, not terribly far from me! Sometimes its a small world.

You are correct, they were minted in Venice. 
https://marenghi.collectorsonline.org/moneta/M-27/12

This is such an amazing coin! I don't think it can be surpassed by any other from the 20 francs category. And also condition of the coin is great! Huge congratulations on this acquisition.
Having quickly checked recent auction archives it does not seem this coin was bought at an auction, or was it?
My only concern with grading this coin would be that those hairlines, mainly on the reverse, could be seen as a sign of cleaning and you get a details grade. Or if they determine that there are some marks from previous mounting (as many of these coins were mounted). But in any case, I don't think any potential imperfections affect the overall eye appeal too much which I am sure must be even better when holding the coin in hands!
By the way, I see no reason why these coins shouldn't have been minted in Venice directly.
(I hope you don't mind that I quoted your post within this thread...)

I did not find recent auction sales of any graded ones, but ungraded was sold for £35,000 + 17% in December. 
London Coins link
Interesting quote from the coin description:
At the time of writing an example of this £200 2oz issue could be seen for sale on-line in excess of £80,000.
I think such coins with unproven real value won't be sold through auctions very often because there the seller loses any control over the coin so they are entirely at the mercy of the auction house and its starting price and whether the right buyer appears at that particular auction. Plus there's the commission. BTW 35k was the starting price.

As far as I know, the biggest concentration of the coin shops in Paris is around the "Bourse" (Rue Vivienne and surrounding streets). They would however be probably all closed by this time of the day...

As far as I know, the biggest concentration of the coin shops in Paris is around the "Bourse" (Rue Vivienne and surrounding streets). They would however be probably all closed by this time of the day...

No it wasn't me at sincona it went for 800 or 850 plus fees at sincona I bought it after that 
Thanks for the Input chaps 

Actually, I had no doubt about correctness of your measurement and I was only happy to see the actual weight confirmed as I also noted inconsistency between various sources. Numista is usually great but one should keep in mind that its data is mostly based on contributions from members, which should in theory be checked by a "referee", but mistakes can still occur. After I saw 1.08g given by NGC and Ucoin (as well as other sites on which weight ranged from 1.04 to 1.11g), I started to suspect that Numista got it wrong, unless there are two different sizes of the coin or something like that, which was why I asked if you perhaps know something about that.
Anyway, if your measurement is confirmed, I would try submitting a correction on Numista and we'll see what happens!

Actually, I had no doubt about correctness of your measurement and I was only happy to see the actual weight confirmed as I also noted inconsistency between various sources. Numista is usually great but one should keep in mind that its data is mostly based on contributions from members, which should in theory be checked by a "referee", but mistakes can still occur. After I saw 1.08g given by NGC and Ucoin (as well as other sites on which weight ranged from 1.04 to 1.11g), I started to suspect that Numista got it wrong, unless there are two different sizes of the coin or something like that, which was why I asked if you perhaps know something about that.
Anyway, if your measurement is confirmed, I would try submitting a correction on Numista and we'll see what happens!

OK, here goes:

Cu 536
Ag 452
Pb 5
Fe 3
So, 45% silver.
Thinking further about the lead, this is unlikely to have come from cupellation, which is used in fire assay analysis, but not in refining, as far as I am aware, but please feel free to correct me if you find otherwise.
 

"VAT free silver" has anyway just been a gimmick from European Mint for some time now. Though technically it may be correct and no VAT is applied, you don't see corresponding actual difference in the final price compared to other European dealers who apply VAT. E.g. at the moment 1oz silver coins start at around €23.20-23.50 depending on purchase volume, which is fairly low price but nothing out of ordinary you couldn't find at other dealers such as the dreaded gs.be mentioned above. So where exactly is the alleged VAT saving?
Add the cost of shipping which was always very high at EM (easily double the cost of other dealers) and you can see that there really isn't too much to be sorry about if this loophole is going to be closed...

Royal Mint mix up by the looks of things.  😅
 

Today I received...
Well, ok, they didn't all show up today, they've been assembled over a six month period. But the last one DID just show up this week, so I'm posting anyways.
Here's a nice mini-collection of Romanian gold pieces in terrific condition. Eastern European gold coinage can be tough to collect, with its unfortunate combination of low mintages and war/revolution/political unrest.
The coins:
1. 1883 20 Lei - LMU standard 0.1867AGW - Minted in Bucharest, 185,290 pieces. King Carol I on the obverse, crowned and draped coat of arms on the reverse. Edge lettering that reads "PATRIA*SI DREPTUL*MEU" (Homeland And My Right).
2. 1890 20 Lei - LMU standard 0.1867AGW - Minted in Bucharest, 196,000 pieces. King Carol I on the obverse, crowned and draped coat of arms on the reverse. Edge lettering that reads "PATRIA*SI DREPTUL*MEU" (Homeland And My Right).
3. 1906 circulating commemorative 20 Lei - LMU standard 0.1867AGW - Minted in Brussels, Belgium, 15,000 pieces. Obverse and reverse both portraits of King Carol I. Milled edge.
4. 1944 Ardealul Nostru medallion, a commemorative issued to mark the liberation of areas of northern Transylvania that were annexed by Hungary in 1940 with the support of Nazi Germany.
Nominally assigned a value of 20 Lei, although not to LMU standards - it mirrors the same size/fineness/weight of the debased 100 Franc - 21mm, 6.55g, 0.1895AGW.
Obverse depicts overlapped busts of Michael the Brave, King Ferdinand, and King Michael. Reverse is a crowned eagle surrounded by the coats of arms of the annexed Transylvanian counties. Edge lettering that reads "NIHIL SINE DEO" (Nothing Without God).
Minted in Vienna, 1,000,000 pieces, though its anyone's guess how many survived the end of WWII and all that came after in this part of the world. Many thanks to @DuncanWylieWilson for this piece that completes my little Romanian mini-collection. Off to deep storage for my ungrateful heirs to one day auction off 😂😂😂

Not to discourage you from collecting, but you mean this one?
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005001891695673.html

Strangely enough, it is more or less true that all 1780 MT talers are restrikes, i.e. minted later than in 1780, which was the year of MT's death. However, some restrikes are much earlier than others, as the coin has been produced almost without interruption since then until today. Those first restrikes are often referred to as original strikes, which is not completely correct. I guess, the right term should be something like "original restrike"...

Not to discourage you from collecting, but you mean this one?
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1005001891695673.html

https://news.coinupdate.com/historic-return-of-sovereign-production-to-india-1861/

This link may explain the differences between sovereigns minted in India and the RM and why they are regarded as bullion/ commemoratives etc.
They were meant for the Indian market only, which is why I had difficulty getting one  from the RM a few years back. My 2013  NGC 69 graded Sov. came from eBay. I bought my 2018 from Dubai Airport, The RM were offering Indian sovereigns at coin fairs at inflated prices, I believe the ‘availability’ at the time was the 1918, 2013/14 years, and the initial contract for 5 years 2013 -2017 continuing on to 2020. i am certain the RM were aware of this. I don’t know if production has now stopped….l

I think that's a very fair summary @CollectForFun