1855 Hamburg Silver Schilling

[LawrenceChard]

I like the huge range there are of German States coins, from the days before German Unification, the one in 1871, not the one in 1990, which was a re-unification.

Wikipedia says there were 39 German States, but some years ago, I counted about 240 to 240, including City States.

Here is an example from Hamburg, actually the Free Hanseatic city of Hamburg:

Obverse: Hamburg Crest, (Castle with three towers)

Reverse: 

* 1 *

SCHILLING

HAMB. COUR.

1855

This example is without mintmark, but other similar coins have a mintmark "A" below the date.

Anybody want to guess the silver content?

😎

Edited June 24, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[Norskgeld]

0.375? 😋

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Norskgeld said:

0.375? 😋

Officially, yes!

😎

[Norskgeld]

Yayyyyy!!!  😇

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, Norskgeld said:

Yayyyyy!!!  😇

But not according to our Niton XRF machine!

😎

[Mrpound]

Hmmmm…. 0.650?

[Happypanda88]

They debased their silver to .250 ?

[Arganto]

Another pure silver anomaly?

[LawrenceChard]

On 25/06/2022 at 08:55, Norskgeld said:

0.375? 😋

 

On 25/06/2022 at 10:03, LawrenceChard said:

Officially, yes!

😎

 

11 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

But not according to our Niton XRF machine!

😎

 

10 hours ago, Mrpound said:

Hmmmm…. 0.650?

 

7 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

They debased their silver to .250 ?

 

2 hours ago, Arganto said:

Another pure silver anomaly?

Clue time:

Our Niton test result showed:

Cu

Ag

Pb

Fe

In that order...

😎

[Arganto]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Cu

Ag

Pb

Fe

Hmmm, don't be sticking that one in your mouth!

Cu .660

Ag .299

Pb .029

Fe .012

?

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, Arganto said:

Hmmm, don't be sticking that one in your mouth!

Cu .660

Ag .299

Pb .029

Fe .012

?

Interesting!

😎

[Arganto]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Interesting!

If this were pin the tail on the donkey would I have made it to the hindquarters then? 😁

[LawrenceChard]

7 minutes ago, Arganto said:

If this were pin the tail on the donkey would I have made it to the hindquarters then? 😁

ee or ee or ee or 'ee always says that!

You've not made an ass of yourself.

😎

[stefffana]

On 24/06/2022 at 23:09, LawrenceChard said:

I like the huge range there are of German States coins, from the days before German Unification, the one in 1871, not the one in 1990, which was a re-unification.

Wikipedia says there were 39 German States, but some years ago, I counted about 240 to 240, including City States.

Here is an example from Hamburg, actually the Free Hanseatic city of Hamburg:

Obverse: Hamburg Crest, (Castle with three towers)

Reverse: 

* 1 *

SCHILLING

HAMB. COUR.

1855

This example is without mintmark, but other similar coins have a mintmark "A" below the date.

Anybody want to guess the silver content?

😎

Before 1871 were 39 German States, indeed. But before 1800 their number was over 300, including of course City States. This number was gradually reduced after 1815, (Congress of Vienna), 1830 (German Revolution) and 1848 (March  Revolution).

Your counting number of 240 was very accurate probably only few weeks, but who knows when....

About your silver coin, I can try a guess only for the percentage of Pb, I will not try a complete guess.

Pb: 0.49%

At that period the silver refining method was for sure cupellation, so residual lead from this process is absolutely normal.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by stefffana

[LawrenceChard]

29 minutes ago, stefffana said:

Before 1871 were 39 German States, indeed. But before 1800 their number was over 300, including of course City States. This number was gradually reduced after 1815, (Congress of Vienna), 1830 (German Revolution) and 1848 (March  Revolution).

Your counting number of 240 was very accurate probably only few weeks, but who knows when....

About your silver coin, I can try a guess only for the percentage of Pb, I will not try a complete guess.

Pb: 0.49%

At that period the silver refining method was for sure cupellation, so residual lead from this process is absolutely normal.

 

That's a very good point about lead, and your estimate is excellent.

😎

[stefffana]

 

Clue time again, @LawrenceChard?

Bert is very curious. He just bought a tyrollian hat waiting for your precious informations.

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 25/06/2022 at 08:55, Norskgeld said:

0.375? 😋

 

On 26/06/2022 at 00:15, Mrpound said:

Hmmmm…. 0.650?

 

On 26/06/2022 at 03:09, Happypanda88 said:

They debased their silver to .250 ?

 

On 26/06/2022 at 08:32, Arganto said:

Another pure silver anomaly?

 

11 hours ago, stefffana said:

Before 1871 were 39 German States, indeed. But before 1800 their number was over 300, including of course City States. This number was gradually reduced after 1815, (Congress of Vienna), 1830 (German Revolution) and 1848 (March  Revolution).

Your counting number of 240 was very accurate probably only few weeks, but who knows when....

About your silver coin, I can try a guess only for the percentage of Pb, I will not try a complete guess.

Pb: 0.49%

At that period the silver refining method was for sure cupellation, so residual lead from this process is absolutely normal.

 

OK, here goes:

Cu 536

Ag 452

Pb 5

Fe 3

So, 45% silver.

Thinking further about the lead, this is unlikely to have come from cupellation, which is used in fire assay analysis, but not in refining, as far as I am aware, but please feel free to correct me if you find otherwise.

 

[stefffana]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

 

 

OK, here goes:

Cu 536

Ag 452

Pb 5

Fe 3

So, 45% silver.

Thinking further about the lead, this is unlikely to have come from cupellation, which is used in fire assay analysis, but not in refining, as far as I am aware, but please feel free to correct me if you find otherwise.

 

Yes, cupellation is used today in fire assay analysis, probably the most accurate method possible.

But was used before for refining gold and silver, to separate the base metals from low purity alloys.

I will copy/ paste from Wikipedia:

Cupellation is a refining process in metallurgy where ores or alloyed metals are treated under very high temperatures and have controlled operations to separate noble metals, like gold and silver, from base metals, like lead, copper, zinc, arsenic, antimony, or bismuth, present in the ore.^[1][2][3] The process is based on the principle that precious metals do not oxidise or react chemically, unlike base metals. When they are heated at high temperatures, the precious metals remain apart, and the others react, forming slags or other compounds.^[4]

16th century cupellation furnaces (per Agricola)

Since the Early Bronze Age, the process was used to obtain silver from smelted lead ores.^[5][6] By the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, cupellation was one of the most common processes for refining precious metals. By then, fire assays were used for assaying minerals: testing fresh metals such as lead and recycled metals to know their purity for jewellery and coin making. Cupellation is still in use today.^[4][7]

[Arganto]

I like these games 🌞

[stefffana]

Also, there are many tutorials on YouTube about cupellation process, even using very basic tools, in the back garden, with primitive cupells made from  cement.

I will attach two short videos about refining silver and gold using cupells made from Portland cement.I

 

 

[CollectForFun]

21 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

OK, here goes:

Cu 536

Ag 452

Pb 5

Fe 3

So, 45% silver.

Thinking further about the lead, this is unlikely to have come from cupellation, which is used in fire assay analysis, but not in refining, as far as I am aware, but please feel free to correct me if you find otherwise.

Thanks for posting this, it's useful to know that you weighted the coin at 1.1 grams. Do you know why some sources (including Numista) claim the weight is 3.6 grams?

[LawrenceChard]

46 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

Thanks for posting this, it's useful to know that you weighted the coin at 1.1 grams. Do you know why some sources (including Numista) claim the weight is 3.6 grams?

I am pleased that you notice, but do not know why Numista quotes it as 3.6 grams. When I first saw your post, I suspected that I had written the weight down incorrectly, however I will check it as soon as I can, which may be tomorrow.

Meanwhile, a quick search finds: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/german-states-hamburg-schilling-km-586-1855-cuid-1135556-duid-1336762 Weight: 1.0800g.

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/hamburg-1-schilling-1855/?tid=81931 Weight 1.08 grams

https://www.ma-shops.com/koelnermuenzkabinett/item.php?id=20922 3.60 grams

https://worldqualitycoins.com/products/1855-german-states-free-city-of-hamburg-silver-coin-schilling-castle-ngc-ms63 Weight: 1.08 g

There are numerous other sources, but I suspect many of them simply quote a figure they have seen elsewhere, and assume it is correct.

I prefer to make my own mistakes!

😎

[CollectForFun]

35 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I am pleased that you notice, but do not know why Numista quotes it as 3.6 grams. When I first saw your post, I suspected that I had written the weight down incorrectly, however I will check it as soon as I can, which may be tomorrow.

Meanwhile, a quick search finds: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/german-states-hamburg-schilling-km-586-1855-cuid-1135556-duid-1336762 Weight: 1.0800g.

https://en.ucoin.net/coin/hamburg-1-schilling-1855/?tid=81931 Weight 1.08 grams

https://www.ma-shops.com/koelnermuenzkabinett/item.php?id=20922 3.60 grams

https://worldqualitycoins.com/products/1855-german-states-free-city-of-hamburg-silver-coin-schilling-castle-ngc-ms63 Weight: 1.08 g

There are numerous other sources, but I suspect many of them simply quote a figure they have seen elsewhere, and assume it is correct.

I prefer to make my own mistakes!

😎

Actually, I had no doubt about correctness of your measurement and I was only happy to see the actual weight confirmed as I also noted inconsistency between various sources. Numista is usually great but one should keep in mind that its data is mostly based on contributions from members, which should in theory be checked by a "referee", but mistakes can still occur. After I saw 1.08g given by NGC and Ucoin (as well as other sites on which weight ranged from 1.04 to 1.11g), I started to suspect that Numista got it wrong, unless there are two different sizes of the coin or something like that, which was why I asked if you perhaps know something about that.

Anyway, if your measurement is confirmed, I would try submitting a correction on Numista and we'll see what happens!

[stefffana]

On 27/06/2022 at 21:17, Arganto said:

I like these games 🌞

I miss these games!

@LawrenceChard, we need you, Sir!