272

Another miss from the RM, just awful.
Thx for sharing dikefalos.

Ballot for Sovereignty bottles on Drinkfinder if anyone is still looking
https://www.drinkfinder.co.uk/p/120353/restricted/foursquare/foursquare-sovereignty-14-year-old-exceptional-cask-selection-70cl

A bit steep, but Samaroli are one of the higher end independent bottlers.
 

As I feel broke at the moment, i thought I would set up a little investment cupboard to remind me where my capital has gone! 
I shall replace the other bits with other types of investments as I go along (not sure what yet?). 

Note the warning to my curious sons in the future 😛 
My eldest (6yo) watched me open my key safe the other day, wrote down the code and got into my PM safe. 
I also found a note in his bedroom saying ' breaking daddies safe and take his gold. I have created a monster. 
My 5yo could not give a stuff about all that at all.

Bless him he thought I would find it funny, but I calmly told him that was anything else but funny LOL. 

Is it OK to store it like this? i have added the poly on top to protect from potential water damage. 
Its a steady temperature & I will install a lock on it as there will be a few £K in there before too long!!

 
 
 

Thanks Mate - I sold a pair of sunglasses (I found) yesterday for £10 more so its effectively free. Thanks for that.  

Not long after: 

The LBD's went quick too, I was surprised.
Let me know how it tastes 😋

wow thanks. Just purchased one. 
I have not used whiskeytree before it was sold out at all my usual go to places.
 
Appreciate the link 🙂   on its way.

Four Square Sovereignty out today!
Already sold out at Whiskyexchange and Royal Mile Whisky they're going quick as usual.
RRP around £75

Managed to pick up a couple of these, before they sold out (quickly) earlier this week.

Sovereignty should be landing in the UK soon but not quite sure when.
Still looking for next Caroni / Velier to tap into. 
https://rumshopboy.com/2022/05/11/foursquareexceptional-cask-selection-xix-sovereignty/
 

I think its specifically US, UK, Japan and Canada ahead of the G7 summit? Applies to apply to newly mined or refined gold. 
UK, U.S., Japan and Canada to ban Russia gold imports | Reuters 

Wow I can't believe I have only found this feed today
I live rum and am thinking of starting a collect I do have some already 21yr Appleton estate  i have already finished one bottle but have an untouched one 
I am hoping  to get an older English Harbour soon 
My favourite non standard may offend a few and it's captain Morgan private stock
 
In also thinking of building a whiskey collection I already have a decent macallan 1969 25yr old with box etc
I keep that out of arms reach thats for sure 

Is no one drinking their Rum 🙂
The trouble is once you drink any half decent rum the cheaper stuff just tastes like antiseptic 😝

Then she went 'bom-bom'

I went a little mad on the auctions this week. 😛
I still have a Shibboleth from Europe and an Elyesium at my mums house. 

I was shocked at the £25 cost for ONE bottle from Europe!!
It still equalled the £130 I paid for the Shibboleth - little bit over valued, but it should be small change in a few years time. 

I bagged a few £65-75 indelible's to make up for it. 
The commission and delivery combined (10% and £22.50) worked out at 14.62 per bottle, which is also a bit steep!!

Average Indelible (x4) = £67.5+£14.62 = £82.12 (probbaly more like £78-80 as the others were more expensive). 
Shibboleth = £144 (yeah got a bit ripped off for that). 😛 
Retoutable (x3) = £116 + £14.62 = £131. I bought one quite high £130 - others at £110. Wont repeat that!

Shibboleth europe: £106 + £10.60 + £25 = £141.6
Taking the piiisss I know - but I duo think this bottle will be a winner long term & £20 wont even be an issue.  
Pklus they are obviously cheaper as the buyers take this into consideration dont they. Its cheaper than my UK one. 

I have noticed a seller from poland selling a ton of bottles, so if they come back I shall look at buying a load to be shipped to Poland. My thinking ids that if there is an over supply (plus peoples unfounded fears of the war) the price should be good - its a real investment one too. 

Still some in stock on TWE site

Sounds nice. Im certainly going to start building up a decent collection. 

This is my first one. £91. I bought 2 of them, but one is at my mums house. 

 

Usually stop into Caddenheads whisky shop when on trip to Edinburgh. They have a few rum casks you can fill bottles directly from. Usually 55-60%. The Jamaican rum is dark and a lot like bourbon in my opinion. Guyana is my favourite, light and fruity. Sure they have Fiji rum as well. Never really considered it for investment but might rethink with current inflation and all that. Will get some pictures on my next visit. 

I'm not an accountant either but I did research investing surplus cash / retained profits in my company. 
Unless you were explicitly setting up as a dealer / jewellery maker, if PMs were bought as a business investment and were deemed substantial compared to your actual trading activity. then you might be considered a closed investment company which will be subject to the full 25% corporation tax from 2023 (as opposed to 19% if your profits are less than £50K pa)  and would also exclude you from entrepreneurs relief if you decided to sell the company.
Buying PMs as a corporate investment  wouldn't exempt you from paying corporation tax on the surplus cash used to purchase the PMs as effectively these would be retained profits (i.e. as opposed to a business expense you can offset against corporation tax). If the PMs are bought as legal UK tender then in theory its CGT exempt  when the company sells (assuming the price has risen), but you'd then still need to plan when to most efficiently sell  the assets and the tax implications of personally extracting it as pension contributions, dividends or wages etc. I suppose deferring disposal to a year where your expenses were greater / conventional profits smaller might be useful (assuming your business is under the micro-entity threshold to qualify for only paying tax when investments are realised)?
 
 

This is actually a draft of what I hope will be a concise but comprehensive advice page for anyone thinking of investing in gold, silver, or platinum bullion coins or bars.
The definitive version of it will be appear soon on the Chards website, but I hope it will also be a useful resource for "newbies" on TSF.
I also invite suggestions, criticisms, and other comments.
The final online version will have links to expanded, detailed pages about the various topic headings and bullet points included here:
 
Advice Guide for UK Precious Metal Bullion Investors 
Gold Should Be Your First Choice
Gold should be your first choice, because investment gold is exempt from VAT in the UK (& also EU).  You should aim to buy at the lowest percentage premium within reason.  Does size matter? Yes!  One ounce gold bullion coins are usually available at low premiums.  Gold sovereigns are often available at only slightly higher premiums, and are more affordable because they are smaller, containing  just less than a quarter ounce of fine gold.  Gold bars are usually available at premiums similar to, or slightly less than, equivalent gold coins.  Most coins and bars smaller than one ounce usually cost a relatively high premium, and therefore are not such good value.  Silver Is Also a Popular Investment
Silver is also a popular investment, and has many enthusiastic fans.  It is subject to VAT, so in the UK, you pay the current rate of 20% tax at the front end on your investment, which is not really sensible or recommended.  Percentage premiums are higher on silver than on similar size gold coins and bars, because the manufacturing cost is relatively higher. For example, if a one ounce silver coin costs £1 to make, that’s about 6% to start with. If a one ounce gold coin cost £2 to make, that would only be about 0.2%.  Transport and shipping will cost proportionately more for silver than for gold.  Affordability. If you only have a very limited amount to invest, say £100, then you may prefer to buy silver rather than gold, but you will be paying higher premiums plus VAT, and you would be better off buying one sovereign when you have accumulated enough spare capital.  Platinum Is Also Worth Thinking About
Platinum is also worth thinking about. For many years, its price was higher than gold. At the time of writing, it was much lower, making it more attractive.  It does cost slightly more to process platinum than gold, but not vastly more, so premiums are only slightly higher, unlike silver.  VAT is payable on platinum, as on silver, and almost everything but investment gold.  Palladium
We do deal in palladium coins and bars, but the retail investment market is minuscule, and any stock we have is usually secondary market. 
Offshore Secure Storage Can Avoid VAT
Offshore storage is worth considering for larger investors. Many bullion investors are paranoid about being in physical possession of their investment, so it is not for everyone, but from a purely logical point of view, it makes good sense, as it can avoid having to pay VAT on silver, platinum or palladium.
Insurance and Secure Storage
Security and Insurance are also factors to consider. While many people may be happy to hide a few gold sovereigns under the floorboards, insurance of high values at home can be expensive or impossible. Most people could not afford a high security safe or vault, with alarm systems. Safe deposit boxes are not universally available, and are often not covered by insurance. Third party secure storage is an option. 
Secure Storage
There are some providers of secure storage, including us. Minimum fees do apply, but our Fully Insured Secure Storage is very competitive, and for most people, costs much less than doing it yourself. (See Secure Storage page).
Bullion Coins v. Bullion Bars
 Coins v. Bars
Bullion bars are usually slightly cheaper to buy than bullion coins, but are not always as easy to dispose of, and any cost advantage when you buy is likely to be lost when it comes to selling. 
Ratios
The relative prices of gold, silver, platinum, or palladium, are worth looking at, and taking into consideration. We have pages for Gold:Silver and other ratios, and advice pages about them. (Links) 
Larger Sizes
Bullion coins and bars in sizes larger than one ounce are available, and are usually at lower premiums, but are not always the best answer. Silver kilo bars are a possible exception. Kilo gold bars, for example, are high value, and not everyone can afford them, so even though slightly cheaper to buy, there is a more restricted choice when it comes to sell them. 
Aesthetics should not be of prime importance when investing, except that it may be slightly easier to sell an attractive item than an ugly one. If the design or appearance of your bullion is important to you, then you may be more of a collector than an investor. Different principles and logic may therefore apply. 
Fakes, Forgeries, Frauds and Scams
Fakes exist of many bullion coins and bars. It is important to be aware that they exist, but don’t become paranoid. Some fakes are better, or worse, than others. Some gold coins for example contain the correct amount of gold (and sometimes too much). This limits their deficiency in value, but we advise against buying fakes. While the standard advice might be to buy from reputable dealers, not all dealers are as expert or as scrupulous as they should be. Many auction houses for example give little or limited guarantees against counterfeits. We, on the other hand, unconditionally guarantee the authenticity of what we sell.  
Scams exist. Because there are potentially large amounts of money involved, there always have been, and always will be scams, frauds, and deceptions. It pays to be aware and cautious, but don’t get paranoid.
Design
Designs of coins and bars vary. Our advice here is similar for aesthetics. If you prefer the design or appearance of different coins or bars, then it may not be stupid to pay extra for them, but do consider whether you will recoup any extra when you sell. There is nothing wrong with being a collector, but you may wish to apply different principles compared with purely investing. 
CGT – Capital Gains Tax
Most British legal tender coins are exempt from CGT, so it may be worth larger investors paying slightly higher premiums when buying. Other coins and bars are not exempt from CGT, but this might not matter for many smaller investors. 
Fractional Sizes
We have already touched on these under “smaller sizes”. Premiums will almost always be higher than for the “sweet spot” sizes. Most quarter ounce gold coins, for example, will have a higher premium than for similar sized gold sovereigns, which are available at competitive prices. Tiny sizes, such as 1 gram or less, are usually best avoided because they will be at high premiums. 
Advice in Your Interest
The advice we give is intended to be in your best interest, and not in ours. Some dealers will give you advice slanted towards whatever makes them more profit. We don’t do that! 
World Coins
There are quite a few foreign mints issuing bullion coins, which provides healthy competition, and choice. The British Royal Mint are competitive nowadays, on price and design. If you prefer to collect a variety, then do so, but be aware of the difference between collecting and investing. 
Crown Gold or Fine Gold
Gold bullion coins need to be a minimum of 90% fine gold to qualify as investment gold. Older USA, and many European gold coins were made of 90% (.900 fine). British gold sovereigns are 22ct gold (91.66%), while some modern gold bullion coins are 99.9%, 99.99%, or even 99.999% fine gold (often slightly incorrectly called 24ct). There is no major reason to choose one standard over another in the UK, although some countries have different tax or import charges on coins lower than “24ct”. 
Gold Bars need to be at least 99.5% to qualify as investment gold for VAT exemption. 
Old v. New Coins
By "old” we mean traditional circulation coins such as gold sovereigns, as opposed to “new” modern bullion coins which are mainly in ounces, fractions or multiples of ounces. There is no real benefit in buying modern one ounce gold bullion coins compared with older traditional types such as gold sovereigns, except that it makes the arithmetic or maths slightly easier for those who or lazy or innumerate. One plus point in favour of buying “older” bullion coins is there is more upside potential demand from collectors compared with modern one ounce pieces. 
New v. Secondary Market
Generally speaking, secondary market coins and bars will cost less (lower premiums) than their new equivalents, in which case, they are the better buy. Because their premiums are lower, they are often in greater demand, and are therefore not always instantly available, and you might have to wait. This year’s brand new coins are usually more readily available, but will usually be at slightly higher premiums than secondary market coins.  
Supply and Demand affects premiums and availability. In times of increased demand, there may be delays in getting anything, including new coins. Spikes in demand can outstrip transport, production of blanks, minting / stamping, packaging, and distribution, as well as cleaning out dealers’ stocks. 
Financial Crises, such as the Sub-Prime, Credit, and Banking crisis, can and do cause stampedes into bullion and safe haven assets. 
Covid caused demand to increase, and also caused production and transport problems. Although the worst of these now seem to have passed, the pandemic is still adversely affecting supply and transport lines, and not just for bullion products.
Bullion Market Prices
Spot and live market prices can now be found on many websites, including ours. Spot prices fluctuate almost constantly, but price feeds are only updated periodically, say every 15 seconds. All price feeds can be subject to interruptions, outages, latency, caching, technical glitches and other factors. 
Comparison
The best way to compare value, prices, and deals, is to look at the percentage premiums, rather than at actual monetary differences. If you are someone who does not understand percentages, you may be at a disadvantage. Some dealers and websites make it easier to compare premiums than others. We try to make things transparent and clear because we want to make it easy for investors to make the best decisions. Most of the time, this will mean dealing with us, which is a major reason we try to make it easy. Where VAT is involved, it is not as easy to compare premiums, but then the best premiums will almost always be on VAT exempt investment gold. 
Credit
Nobody in their right mind gives credit on bullion. It would be almost impossible to do so and remain competitive. 
Cleared Funds
Like buying a house or shares, to buy bullion competitively requires immediate or advance payment in cleared funds. Most dealers do not accept payment by credit card, with some exceptions for low value or high margin transactions. Similar applies also to debit cards to a slightly lesser degree. For high value transactions, most dealers have moved to require prepayment. 
Legally Binding Contracts
Most bullion deals involve legally binding contracts between both parties. Although most dealers fully understand and comply, not all private investors understand this, but should do. 
Distance Selling
Most bullion transactions are exempt from, and not subject to The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000, or similar UK laws. Most bullion dealers state this in their terms and conditions. 
Bricks and Clicks
We have been around since well before the internet, so we have a physical showroom which you can visit. Currently this requires an appointment. Postage is not included as standard in our prices, so personal callers do not pay extra for postage they do not use. Naturally, we also deal by telephone and internet, as an extension of mail order which we have always operated. 
Shipping Costs
We calculate shipping (postage) and insurance costs separately for a number of good reasons. It is simpler to programme, clearer and more transparent to display, and more realistic. “Free Postage” is an illusion. On many of our bullion products, we also show prices including shipping costs. 
Competitor Comparison
We also show competitor comparison prices on most of our popular bullion products. This is for transparency, and to make it easier for you to see that we are usually the most competitive UK supplier. These comparisons are shown with and without shipping costs. 
Money Laundering, ID, and Compliance
Because we are major UK dealers, including high value, we are required to enforce anti-money laundering, anti-fraud, and other security measures. For most customers, this includes us taking full ID. Please understand this is not extra work we want to do, but we will try to help you through the process; please try to help us. We do not share your data with anybody unless we are required to do so. This would include suspicious behaviour, such as customers trying to evade tax or trying to provide false ID or other information. 
Security
Our premises are very secure, while at the same time keeping our showroom accessible. 
Secure Website and Hosting. Our websites and systems are highly secure. We commission security and penetration testing above and beyond what we are required to do, Our PEN tests, for example, are only required for “payment processors”. We are not “payment processors”, but having them provides evidence of extra security.
Know Your Supplier
Do think carefully who you are buying from. There are many impressive websites, which claim to be the biggest, or best dealer, but often with little evidence to back up their claim. Some have prestigious sounding central London addresses, which turn out to be rented accommodation addresses, while the actual business is run from from some seedy back street in Essex. Other websites fail to make it easy or clear to see who the business is, or its address. Exercise great caution when dealing with these.  
Jewellers Pawnshops Auctions and Ebay
We often see worn, damaged, substandard, or fake gold sovereigns and other coins which people think they have bought cheaply from some of these outlets. While it can obviously be possible to get the occasional bargain, the opposite is all too often the case. 
Peer to Peer
You may be able to buy some bullion coins from fellow collectors / stackers / investors, at closer to spot than from dealers, but possibly only in small quantities, and there are still matters of trust. Also, postage cost may still be a factor  
Buy-Back and Buying
Some “coin marketing companies” appear to be very reluctant to buy coins from ordinary people, while some “buy-back”, which implies they will only buy coins they have sold. Real dealers, like us, are more than happy to buy bullion and other coins from multiple sources, and pay competitive prices for them; typically around spot (100%) for the most popular bullion coins. 
Disclaimer
Although we have done our best to ensure our advice is sound, it does not constitute financial advice, and we do not accept any legal liability for it.
Any Other Business? If there is something we have not included in this page, anything you don’t understand, or have other questions which you think we should include, then please do get in touch. 
 
All comments welcome.
Spot an error, and you might win a pint!
😎
 

Hi - have you looked at the Let's Talk Whisky thread? I think most of what you've asked has been covered. I don't think the bullion analogy quite works for main stream bottlings - some like Macallans may increase in value if the standard offer changes for example when Macallan started using Bourbon casks from around 2004, which led some to believe only pre-2004 editions are 'truly  Macallan'. Similarly they  changed the Fine Oak series in 2017, scrapping some versions like the 10, 21 and 30 year old, making these more sought after. That is the exception rather than the rule though. 
If you want a bullion approach probably best to look at investment in casks - the business model for most is to buy or share the purchase of a (new make or young) cask and mature it and then sell it to a bottler via a broker after it has matured for a few years, gaining the benefit in the increase in value as an older spirit. its basically the model for Whiskyinvestdirect for example who act as a a broker and store the whisky for a fee too.  You can then buy and sell at volume without having to find somewhere to store it all. The other benefit of casks is that as a wasting asset they  are not subject to capital gains tax.

I hope you don't mind me jumping in.  Fascinating subject and thread this. I've been reading with interest.
I've had a passing interest in whisky as my dad was a collector many years ago. Nothing earth-moving but something I just remember bubbling along in the background and from seeing some of the bottles in the display cabinet. And of course, every now and then, you'd get wind of a certain bottle going at auction for eye-watering money.
Following your very entertaining and insightful comments here, I'll certainly be keeping my eyes peeled for a 2006 Foursquare.
If you'll forgive me a novice enquiry though...  I wondered, is there a general parallel to be drawn between investment spirits and investment PMs? 
 
I'll explain what I mean...

There are sought-after bottles. Special editions, rarities, the whisky / rum equivalents of 'low mintages' etc. The same applies to PMs - especially if you include nuimismatic elements.
But also, there's the 'bullion' end of the game. Stacking, not so much to make a killing at the other end, but to house wealth in a physical asset for a period of time, with the intention that it 'holds' it's value and hopefully beats inflation.
Is that the same for spirits, generally speaking? At the bullion end of whisky (for instance) would a standard, retail bottle retain its value and have a consistent floor over 'x' years?  I don't necessarily mean 70cl of Famous Grouse from Asda, but equally, nothing outlandishly 'special'.

An example:  Yamazaki 12 yr old currently retails in the £130ish bracket. A standard bottle of JW Blue Label - £100ish.  Would it be reasonable to expect that they should outpace inflation if they were held for 10 / 20 years?  Or is it really only the true investment end of the market that's got the growth / returns potential.

I know it's all speculation in the end, just interested in your thoughts.  (Because I don't have £20,000 for a 1965 Macallan, but I could scrape £130 together for a Yamazaki).

Cheers,

 
FNF.

https://www.cgarsltd.co.uk/foursquare-indelible-exceptional-cask-selection-mark-xviii-70cl-p-49519.html

Sure, but it will affect supply chains.
😎

Wowsers


 

Haven't got a loupe but I zoomed in on my phone, looks alright to me thank goodness.