Question Regarding Slabbed/Graded Coins

[Organics]

Hi All 👋

I have never owned a graded/slabbed coin (Sovereign to be exact) before, but have been offered one privately here in Portugal for about the same price as its normal bullion counterpart. 

Graded coins rarely come up for sale here, as Portuguese buyers don’t seem that bothered. Not knowing much about these myself I was wondering how easy these can be tampered with. Is it for example  possible to open these slabs, change the coin for one with a lower grade, and then close it back up. I know it’s very distrusting of me but the price seems to good and I’m obviously trying to avoid any pitfalls before going to see it. 

If there is anything else I should look for then please let me know. 

Thanks in advance 🙏

Edited February 5 by Organics

[Petra]

I don’t think that is really the first thought, just don’t bother. With slabbed coins, unless they are a 70 then people don’t want to know. I think a lot of people even take them out if they are not and send them again to try and get a 70.🤔

[Orpster]

What @Petra has said is only true for coins from the past few years.

Gillicks, and anything older, will all have a different desired grade.  For an example on an average shield sovereign you can pick up AU graded coins for £30-£80 more than a raw bullion, low MS for about £80-120 more but once you get to MS63 the price jumps dramatically the closer you are to top pop (the highest grade coin for that year/type/mint).  And top pop coins can go for thousands.

Perhaps if you tell us the coin and grade we will be able to be more precise

 

Edited February 5 by Orpster

[Organics]

@petra @Orpster I think I wasn’t clear in my message 😟. I was basically asking if these slabs can be tampered with? Or is it once they’re opened they can’t be closed again? Just wondering what are the pitfalls to look for when buying slabbed coins, or is it completely safe? Thanks in advance 🙏

[Orpster]

Not the genuine slabs no, but fakes do exist

[Organics]

24 minutes ago, Orpster said:

Not the genuine slabs no, but fakes do exist

And is there a way to differentiate between the genuine ones and fakes? I’m asking as I’ve never seen one in person. 

[sovereignsteve]

2 minutes ago, Organics said:

And is there a way to differentiate between the genuine ones and fakes? I’m asking as I’ve never seen one in person. 

Experience handling lots of slabbed coins is the best way but there have been tips online and comarisons between the two. problem is those fiendishly clever people in China are continually improving their craft.

First step would be to check the number on the PCGS or NGC website and have a look at the photo if there is one. It is usually possible to spot any obvious differences between a fake and the real photo.

Next would be to weigh it and compare with a known genuine article, this larger the coin the better.

It would actually be useful to build up a database here on TSF of weights of various slabbed coins.

[Orpster]

5 minutes ago, Organics said:

And is there a way to differentiate between the genuine ones and fakes? I’m asking as I’ve never seen one in person. 

Not unless your pretty familiar with the different generations of slabs.

New ones are easy as they have the holographic details and the QR code.  You can always check the code on the NGC/PCGS site and compare to the pictures on there.  Usually the way to tell is the sovereign in the fake slabs is a pretty obvious fake sovereign.  There is a big peice on it on the NGC website 

[Organics]

@sovereignsteve @Orpster Thank you for the information. Looks like I’m staying away from slabbed coins 🤷‍♂️. 

[Orpster]

38 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

It would actually be useful to build up a database here on TSF of weights of various slabbed coins.

Thought I would try that, did a few different coins, lightest and heaviest below.  The majority were 47.3g to 48.2g

I suppose anything outside this range would mean alarm bells - at least in modern slabs I don't have anything in an older gen slab to test unfortunately 

 

 

Edited February 5 by Orpster

[sovereignsteve]

12 minutes ago, Orpster said:

Thought I would try that, did a few different coins, lightest and heaviest below.  The majority were 47.3g to 48.2g

I suppose anything outside this range would mean alarm bells - at least in modern slabs I don't have anything in an older gen slab to test unfortunately

Chances are a fake gold sovereign would be >1g light? Assume would be correct diameter of course.

Would be useful to have the different generation slabs documented.

I feel a useful project coming on🙂

[Shinus73]

55 minutes ago, Organics said:

@sovereignsteve @Orpster Thank you for the information. Looks like I’m staying away from slabbed coins 🤷‍♂️. 

It seems sensible to point out that a non slabbed Sovereign can also be fake.

One of the very definite advantages of slabbed coins (once you become experienced) is that it removes the authenticity question.

There are so many faked Sovereigns selling on eBay, which can easily fool a lot of people, that it’s graded only for me now.

[sovereignsteve]

14 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

It seems sensible to point out that a non slabbed Sovereign can also be fake.        but raw sovs are easier to inspect, fake slabs are a problem

One of the very definite advantages of slabbed coins (once you become experienced) is that it removes the authenticity question.       Assuming the slab is authentic

There are so many faked Sovereigns selling on eBay, which can easily fool a lot of people, that it’s graded only for me now.      but how many fake slabs are there?  the problem is they lead to complacency especially for inexperienced buyers

 

[Sovhead]

1 hour ago, Orpster said:

Thought I would try that, did a few different coins, lightest and heaviest below.  The majority were 47.3g to 48.2g

I suppose anything outside this range would mean alarm bells - at least in modern slabs I don't have anything in an older gen slab to test unfortunately 

 

 

Might be best to weigh them outside of the wee wrapper you’ve put them in that’ll throw the weight off slightly, I’ll weigh a couple ive got and stick pics up later.

[Sovhead]

I only have 2 graded sovs both in identical slabs and there’s a slight difference…

[Petra]

1 hour ago, Sovhead said:

I only have 2 graded sovs both in identical slabs and there’s a slight difference…

Old coins that have actually been in circulation. Would assume anything Gillick onwards in same type of slab should weigh the same?🤔

6 hours ago, Orpster said:

What @Petra has said is only true for coins from the past few years.

Gillicks, and anything older, will all have a different desired grade.  For an example on an average shield sovereign you can pick up AU graded coins for £30-£80 more than a raw bullion, low MS for about £80-120 more but once you get to MS63 the price jumps dramatically the closer you are to top pop (the highest grade coin for that year/type/mint).  And top pop coins can go for thousands.

Perhaps if you tell us the coin and grade we will be able to be more precise

 

🤔good point!🤔😁

[Sovhead]

14 minutes ago, Petra said:

Old coins that have actually been in circulation. Would assume anything Gillick onwards in same type of slab should weigh the same?🤔

🤔good point!🤔😁

Those 2 I pictured are nigh on the same grade but there’s over 1g of a difference so the slabs themselves without the coin can not be the same weight even though they are same era slabs.

[Shinus73]

4 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

 

I agree that relying on slabs is dangerous for inexperienced slab buyers.

Personally, I trust my ability to determine the authenticity of a slab, given my experience with grading and the tools available on the NGC/PCGS websites, more than I do to determine the authenticity of a well faked, raw sovereign. I’m not enough of an expert in that area.

Edited February 5 by Shinus73

[Britannia47]

First time I’ve weighed a slab!   
Obviously with a modern uncirculated sovereign weighing 7.98g compared to ‘shields’ possibly weighing slightly less, mine should be a bit heavier in total. 

Therefore  slab weight = 41.79g.

 

 

[SilverJacks]

All the fake slabs I've seen seem relatively easy to spot. As for opened and resealed slabs, Ive never encountered one, but I have heard it is possible. It's gonna be really tricky to do without leaving any sign of tampering, but I guess it is within the realms of possibility.

As previously stated, the NGC/PCGS photos are key to peace of mind. You can compare the slab to the images for any unique identifiers. This is relatively easy on older coins, but even new coins is still very much acheivable. You can even count the serations between the prongs, or a dust speck, or a unique mark on the slab, such as the plastic weld marks. There is also the label which often has unique marks on it such as little blobs or slight blur on the print.

If everything in the photo matches the slabbed coin in your possession, then you can really rely on it being legit. Imagine the difficulty a counterfeiter would have to go through to match everything up. Match the coins unique identifying features, the serrations, the orientation alignment, and using the resealed slab without any damage. That would take so much time that it would have to be a very high-end coin to be worth their while, and even then it does not seem realistically achievable. 

The problem for me is the older generations of holders. Not only am i not familair with the slabs, but their are no images on the NGC/PCGS website to refer to. 

[GoodAsGold]

1 hour ago, SilverJacks said:

All the fake slabs I've seen seem relatively easy to spot. As for opened and resealed slabs, Ive never encountered one, but I have heard it is possible. It's gonna be really tricky to do without leaving any sign of tampering, but I guess it is within the realms of possibility.

As previously stated, the NGC/PCGS photos are key to peace of mind. You can compare the slab to the images for any unique identifiers. This is relatively easy on older coins, but even new coins is still very much acheivable. You can even count the serations between the prongs, or a dust speck, or a unique mark on the slab, such as the plastic weld marks. There is also the label which often has unique marks on it such as little blobs or slight blur on the print.

If everything in the photo matches the slabbed coin in your possession, then you can really rely on it being legit. Imagine the difficulty a counterfeiter would have to go through to match everything up. Match the coins unique identifying features, the serrations, the orientation alignment, and using the resealed slab without any damage. That would take so much time that it would have to be a very high-end coin to be worth their while, and even then it does not seem realistically achievable. 

The problem for me is the older generations of holders. Not only am i not familair with the slabs, but their are no images on the NGC/PCGS website to refer to. 

The only thing I could add to the above comments is that having done lots of “spot the difference” cartoons mostly in my childhood, I couldn’t resist the urge to compare the barcodes between the NGC/PCGS photos and the slab as well. Just don’t sneeze when you’ve almost finished.  

[Organics]

9 hours ago, SilverJacks said:

All the fake slabs I've seen seem relatively easy to spot. As for opened and resealed slabs, Ive never encountered one, but I have heard it is possible. It's gonna be really tricky to do without leaving any sign of tampering, but I guess it is within the realms of possibility.

As previously stated, the NGC/PCGS photos are key to peace of mind. You can compare the slab to the images for any unique identifiers. This is relatively easy on older coins, but even new coins is still very much acheivable. You can even count the serations between the prongs, or a dust speck, or a unique mark on the slab, such as the plastic weld marks. There is also the label which often has unique marks on it such as little blobs or slight blur on the print.

If everything in the photo matches the slabbed coin in your possession, then you can really rely on it being legit. Imagine the difficulty a counterfeiter would have to go through to match everything up. Match the coins unique identifying features, the serrations, the orientation alignment, and using the resealed slab without any damage. That would take so much time that it would have to be a very high-end coin to be worth their while, and even then it does not seem realistically achievable. 

The problem for me is the older generations of holders. Not only am i not familair with the slabs, but their are no images on the NGC/PCGS website to refer to. 

Super response. Thank you so much. I’ll bare that all in mind, and I guess buying from a reputable member or dealer is also quite safe (but worth double checking for extra peace of mind) 🙏🙏🙏