Investment Advice Needed Please

[Sy007]

Hello all and thank you for taking the time to read this.
My investment plan is for my retirement in 20 years' time. Should I not make it to my retirement (God forbid), I would like to have my investment shared with my small family.
I have been sitting on the fence trying to find an answer. Do I buy coins or bars? Which will be easier for my family to sell should I not be around?
I have started making a journal of my purchases. Cost, point of sale, weights, along with pencil shadings of the coins to show my family how to recognise the coins in particular. It's turning out to be a very interesting and artistic journal! I just want the best information for them to wield the best returns should anything happen to me.
The question is what to buy? It's actually driving me crazy. I can't afford to keep splashing out on 1oz bullion coins so any advice is welcomed. I have looked at sovereigns but I'm worried my family might not be able to value them correctly. 
Many many thanks if you can help. 

 

[Tortoise]

Hi,

Have you considered investing in a SIPP?  (A Self Invested Personal Pension Plan).

Very easy to set up.  You get tax relief on any investments into it.  (So £100 investment costs you £80, or £60 depending on whether you are a standard or higher rate tax payer.) 

On taking your pension, 25% is tax free.

I have one with Hargreaves Lansdown and can recommend them.  Have a look here : https://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/sipp

 

 

[Sy007]

13 minutes ago, Tortoise said:

Hi,

Have you considered investing in a SIPP?  (A Self Invested Personal Pension Plan).

Very easy to set up.  You get tax relief on any investments into it.  (So £100 investment costs you £80, or £60 depending on whether you are a standard or higher rate tax payer.) 

On taking your pension, 25% is tax free.

I have one with Hargreaves Lansdown and can recommend them.  Have a look here : https://www.hl.co.uk/pensions/sipp

 

 

Thanks for your reply.
This is very interesting indeed thank you. I am investing in tangible precious metals at the moment so I'm looking for the best possible ways to invest and for it not to get over complicated for not-so-knowledgeable family members. This is definitely an investment for me but I am now looking at the best ways for my family to profit from it. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Sy007

[Bratnia]

Don't concentrate into just gold alone, include some stocks as well, a broad low cost stock index fund. As per Tortoise bought/held in a SIPP. SIPP's can (subjectively) be passed on exempt from inheritance tax.

Britannias/Sovereigns are capital gains tax exempt, which provides a opportunity to ramp up the cost/price paid whilst the going is good. Record selling them to a family member, and repurchasing them back again at the current spot price. Neither of you would have any taxes to pay (or even report), but the price paid would be higher (assuming prices had risen) so any taxes that did later perhaps apply would be based to a higher cost base. Ideally with records of the actual financial transactions, £50K of original gold purchase, later the price/value had doubled; £100K lent to a offspring, who then bought £100K of gold from you with that, and then later you bought £100K of gold from them and they repaid the £100K loan with the sale proceeds. With bank records of the cash flows. Cost base of the gold = £100K, so even if the rules changed to tax gains there'd be no capital gain tax. Could be contested, but at least you'd have the receipt/bank transaction records of the (last) purchase date/value to present as evidence that indicated the £100K price paid for the gold. For such reason Sovs/Brits are 'better' than bars/other. I see no harm in mixing/holding both. Heirs would most likely be able to distinguish the differences. Sovs will tend to have higher spreads but are more liquid (more easily sold). But if sold in bulk then a reputable dealer would be just as content to buy in bulk of either.

[Tn21]

The benefit of physical metals is that it is tangible and somewhat off the records to an extent. 

Buying coins or bars in theory should not make much of a difference (gold is gold) but as you may or may not know sovereigns and Britannias are capital gain tax exempt for the time being atleast. 

Having standard bullion sovereigns will be easier to liquidate and there is no real need to worry about valuing them at the time unless they are special year designs or key dates. If you did go down the standard bullion sovereign route you can rest easy knowing they can atleast achieve 98% of spot at the time. 

From what I have understood and experienced about gold so far is that it will be a fantastic private pension. Given your time horizon I think you & your family could probably utilise the metal at the time of retirement. 

Whether you pass it down or sell it to fund a car,holiday,house work, children's education etc the hope would be it would have appreciated over time the 20 years. 

I think you will have to also establish whether or not your family take a keen interest over the years if not your better of selling it and giving them the £. 

Coins or bars get anything and everything. Others will disagree but over time you may develop a liking for one more than the other. 

[Sy007]

4 minutes ago, Bratnia said:

Don't concentrate into just gold alone, include some stocks as well, a broad low cost stock index fund. As per Tortoise bought/held in a SIPP. SIPP's can (subjectively) be passed on exempt from inheritance tax.

Britannias/Sovereigns are capital gains tax exempt, which provides a opportunity to ramp up the cost/price paid whilst the going is good. Record selling them to a family member, and repurchasing them back again at the current spot price. Neither of you would have any taxes to pay (or even report), but the price paid would be higher (assuming prices had risen) so any taxes that did later perhaps apply would be based to a higher cost base. Ideally with records of the actual financial transactions, £50K of original gold purchase, later the price/value had doubled; £100K lent to a offspring, who then bought £100K of gold from you with that, and then later you bought £100K of gold from them and they repaid the £100K loan with the sale proceeds. With bank records of the cash flows. Cost base of the gold = £100K, so even if the rules changed to tax gains there'd be no capital gain tax. Could be contested, but at least you'd have the receipt/bank transaction records of the (last) purchase date/value to present as evidence that indicated the £100K price paid for the gold. For such reason Sovs/Brits are 'better' than bars/other. I see no harm in mixing/holding both. Heirs would most likely be able to distinguish the differences. Sovs will tend to have higher spreads but are more liquid (more easily sold). But if sold in bulk then a reputable dealer would be just as content to buy in bulk of either.

This is Gold! All the puns intended! Thank you!

 

[Sy007]

6 minutes ago, Tn21 said:

The benefit of physical metals is that it is tangible and somewhat off the records to an extent. 

Buying coins or bars in theory should not make much of a difference (gold is gold) but as you may or may not know sovereigns and Britannias are capital gain tax exempt for the time being atleast. 

Having standard bullion sovereigns will be easier to liquidate and there is no real need to worry about valuing them at the time unless they are special year designs or key dates. If you did go down the standard bullion sovereign route you can rest easy knowing they can atleast achieve 98% of spot at the time. 

From what I have understood and experienced about gold so far is that it will be a fantastic private pension. Given your time horizon I think you & your family could probably utilise the metal at the time of retirement. 

Whether you pass it down or sell it to fund a car,holiday,house work, children's education etc the hope would be it would have appreciated over time the 20 years. 

I think you will have to also establish whether or not your family take a keen interest over the years if not your better of selling it and giving them the £. 

Coins or bars get anything and everything. Others will disagree but over time you may develop a liking for one more than the other. 

Thank you so much. That's great advice too!

[Bratnia]

If you save just into gold for retirement you could end up very disappointed. 1980 to 1999 for instance and generally the price of gold just repeatedly declined. 50/50 stock/gold however and stocks did well, where yearly rebalancing back to 50/50 values typically had you adding more ounces of gold, ending up with something like six to ten times more gold without any further capital having been added, just from rebalancing. Stocks and gold combine well, gold alone is pretty high risk.

[Zeuk]

What everyone else said, just don't put all your eggs in one basket, look at the tax breaks you can get from different means and get a feel for how big events effects different investments and adjust as you go.  This is how diversified I am - I feel a little underweight on gold and overweight on specific shares, not in any rush to adjust but moving things over time but also keeping in mind that shares are quite cheap at the moment (depending on what comes in the future of course)

Also finding with gold and silver they become more of a hobby than other investments.

 

And then further diversified in the Sipp like this:

 

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Zeuk

[AuricGoldfinger]

Kind of dificult - impossible - to give investment advice without knowing your full circumstances, but im not really sure it’s investment advice you’re asking for - just PM advice.

Sovereigns have to be the EASIEST gold coin to shift/value. Just buy bullion sovs. If you/family are unsure of value either multiply current 1oz spot price by 0.235 OR just look on websites like atkinsons for a price.

As others have mentioned - don’t just rely on gold. Think about any debt you may have and other ways you can improve your financial position over the next 20 years.

The forum had some very knowledgeable people, and also some varying opinions - learn, and then develop your own opinion on what’s going to work for you. Good luck 👍 

[Sy007]

1 minute ago, Bratnia said:

If you save just into gold for retirement you could end up very disappointed. 1980 to 1999 for instance and generally the price of gold just repeatedly declined. 50/50 stock/gold however and stocks did well, where yearly rebalancing back to 50/50 values typically had you adding more ounces of gold, ending up with something like six to ten times more gold without any further capital having been added, just from rebalancing. Stocks and gold combine well, gold alone is pretty high risk.

I do have other investments so you have made me feel more confident. This is a hobby that's turned into a real investment. All of my silver bullion is Royal mint except for a couple of Maples. It's definitely a risk and I understand completely. I feel pretty strongly that we won't see the return of the 80s but you never know. 

[Sy007]

4 minutes ago, AuricGoldfinger said:

Kind of dificult - impossible - to give investment advice without knowing your full circumstances, but im not really sure it’s investment advice you’re asking for - just PM advice.

Sovereigns have to be the EASIEST gold coin to shift/value. Just buy bullion sovs. If you/family are unsure of value either multiply current 1oz spot price by 0.235 OR just look on websites like atkinsons for a price.

As others have mentioned - don’t just rely on gold. Think about any debt you may have and other ways you can improve your financial position over the next 20 years.

The forum had some very knowledgeable people, and also some varying opinions - learn, and then develop your own opinion on what’s going to work for you. Good luck 👍 

Thank you so much. Luckily I am debt free. I wouldn't invest in anything otherwise. The sovereigns seem to be the go-to. That's really interesting.

 

[Zeuk]

Would recommend reading anything by Charlie Munger, Buffet ofc and Ray Dalio.  

You pick up interesting tid bits over time e.g. one bit of advice that I read somewhere or other is not to invest too heavily in sectors you work in because you could both lose your job and your investments in one go ... im in tech and most of the money lost on my Sipp over the last year has been on tech stocks, ive also experience a fair bit of employment risk so it's really ringing in my ears at the moment

[Bratnia]

1 hour ago, Sy007 said:

I do have other investments so you have made me feel more confident. This is a hobby that's turned into a real investment. All of my silver bullion is Royal mint except for a couple of Maples. It's definitely a risk and I understand completely. I feel pretty strongly that we won't see the return of the 80s but you never know. 

The Royal Mint is too pricey (spread) for my liking. A reasonable local dealer where you can visit/collect relationship can tighten the spreads down, and if they are decent will even test each coin in front of you. For my next purchase I've been looking to visit Tavex as its London based and just a tube ride away for me. Nice to also actually see what you're buying before actually buying it.

[Sy007]

3 minutes ago, Bratnia said:

The Royal Mint is too pricey (spread) for my liking. A reasonable local dealer where you can visit/collect relationship can tighten the spreads down, and if they are decent will even test each coin in front of you. For my next purchase I've been looking to visit Tavex as its London based and just a tube ride away for me. Nice to also actually see what you're buying before actually buying it.

To be clear, I haven't bought from RM. What I meant was I am buying Brits solely for the CGT exemption

[Sy007]

19 minutes ago, Zeuk said:

What everyone else said, just don't put all your eggs in one basket, look at the tax breaks you can get from different means and get a feel for how big events effects different investments and adjust as you go.  This is how diversified I am - I feel a little underweight on gold and overweight on specific shares, not in any rush to adjust but moving things over time but also keeping in mind that shares are quite cheap at the moment (depending on what comes in the future of course)

Also finding with gold and silver they become more of a hobby than other investments.

 

And then further diversified in the Sipp like this:

 

 

You are fantastically organised. Very inspiring, thank you!

[Zeuk]

Just now, Sy007 said:

You are fantastically organised. Very inspiring, thank you!

There's a rather big spreadsheet behind all this, easy to maintain but took some pulling together.  Has a number of graphs, transactions etc, much like yourself im trying to plan to retirement 

The Sipp breakdown comes from the trading account, has some pretty useful features apart from the charting software which is rubbish

[MrStacker]

Stick to CGT UK minted coins. I would avoid bars. Coins are easier to store and easier to liquidate.

As this is for your retirement and for your family - I would focus on gold CGT coins. Sovereigns or smaller gold britannias if you don't want to put everything into a 1oz coin. There will be a lot of sound advice coming your way from these replies and much more experienced members may have better suggestions but if there's one thing I would say for you to think about is to keep it simple and stress free. Don't overwhelm yourself with the vast amount of options. Better to take your time and choose a direction that works best for you and for your family. 🙂

[Sy007]

3 minutes ago, MrStacker said:

Stick to CGT UK minted coins. I would avoid bars. Coins are easier to store and easier to liquidate.

As this is for your retirement and for your family - I would focus on gold CGT coins. Sovereigns or smaller gold britannias if you don't want to put everything into a 1oz coin. There will be a lot of sound advice coming your way from these replies and much more experienced members may have better suggestions but if there's one thing I would say for you to think about is to keep it simple and stress free. Don't overwhelm yourself with the vast amount of options. Better to take your time and choose a direction that works best for you and for your family. 🙂

Thanks so much. I've been pretty selfish until recently. I never thought of how my family could liquidate the bullion, it's all been about me. I have to change this and purchase it for the greater good just in case I'm not around. It's a "best of both worlds" investment for me. Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated.

[Sy007]

24 minutes ago, Zeuk said:

Would recommend reading anything by Charlie Munger, Buffet ofc and Ray Dalio.  

You pick up interesting tid bits over time e.g. one bit of advice that I read somewhere or other is not to invest too heavily in sectors you work in because you could both lose your job and your investments in one go ... im in tech and most of the money lost on my Sipp over the last year has been on tech stocks, ive also experience a fair bit of employment risk so it's really ringing in my ears at the moment

Thank you and wishing you a prosperous turnaround.

[Zeuk]

Just now, Sy007 said:

Thank you and wishing you a prosperous turnaround.

Its all good, I took the decision to invest rather than trade, got to accept the variance and look for the signals in the noise 

[Britannia47]

Diversification is also important.  Other forms of investment such as Premium bonds maybe?  Perhaps I am luckier than most. Here’s last months earnings….

 

[shawy2510]

6 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

Diversification is also important.  Other forms of investment such as Premium bonds maybe?  Perhaps I am luckier than most. Here’s last months earnings….

 

You are lucky indeed. I had 10k in them & made £150 in the whole year. Took them out recently & made 5k profit on the 10k from a coin I got 😬

Back to the topic, Sovs or Britannia's at the lowest premium you can get for. 

[Gordy]

As someone said before, i think it's precious metals advice you are after and something that's easy for your family to get their head around if you pop your clogs.

I'd go the sovs and investment bullion silver route, you may go a bit collector on slightly higher premium silver too once you get fully into it but good coins will always sell.

avoid proofs....

for ease of passing on you could always get a member of your family who shows an interest to sit with you and navigate this site and if something does happen then leave them your pw etc and they can post questions on here and get advice on selling the stack...

no-one would let your family get ripped off.. 

[AuricGoldfinger]

1 hour ago, Gordy said:

for ease of passing on you could always get a member of your family who shows an interest to sit with you and navigate this site and if something does happen then leave them your pw etc and they can post questions on here and get advice on selling the stack...

no-one would let your family get ripped off.. 

this is great advice and something i think more members should do - especially those who are over the hill, I’m sure there are plenty!

Even if selling on the forum was a bit daunting for a family member, there is no better place to get advice.

you would be surprised at how many back street pawn/gold shops would take advantage of someones greif and buy a shed load of gold at rip off prices.
 

Forum members always have each others backs, kinda wierd when it’s just a bunch of (mostly men) sat on the internet who never meet lol.

also rather than a member just go silent it would be nice to know if something happened to them