New EU stacker, mostly clueless.

[Hush]

Hi there, finally I decided to take my heads off the trading charts and use some on my hard earned money to buy something tangible and shiny. Problem is: I have no idea about what I am doing. 

 

Since it looks like there is no 'newbie' section I'd like to use this thread to ask a couple of mostly harmless yet very noobish questions. First that comes to mind is: I understand all the 'self-custody' argument and I endorse it wholeheartedly, but as far as I have seen coins and bars (both in silver and gold) cost a pretty hefty premium compared to any type of paper-metal. 1oz silver coins go for 30 to 50 €, 1kg ingots for 820++ €. The spread on gold is not as outrageous but still remarkable. How do you justify paying such a premium? Is this a hobby for collectors or 10+ years hodlers only?

[Lr103]

Welcome to the forum!

[Fenlander1]

Welcome to the forum. You will find lots of more intelligent chaps than myself to explain premiums in very good detail.

[ChrisSilver]

Hello and welcome to The Silver Forum  

[James32]

2 hours ago, Hush said:

Hi there, finally I decided to take my heads off the trading charts and use some on my hard earned money to buy something tangible and shiny. Problem is: I have no idea about what I am doing. 

 

Since it looks like there is no 'newbie' section I'd like to use this thread to ask a couple of mostly harmless yet very noobish questions. First that comes to mind is: I understand all the 'self-custody' argument and I endorse it wholeheartedly, but as far as I have seen coins and bars (both in silver and gold) cost a pretty hefty premium compared to any type of paper-metal. 1oz silver coins go for 30 to 50 €, 1kg ingots for 820++ €. The spread on gold is not as outrageous but still remarkable. How do you justify paying such a premium? Is this a hobby for collectors or 10+ years hodlers only?

Welcome aboard, 

The paper market is nothing more than a racket and whilst unlikely, could implode tomorrow. 

Silver and gold are needed in industry ( silver especially) so if spot went to zero tomorrow, the physical market would pull free and set its own price based on geniune demand. 

Me personally, if I wanted to look at numbers on a screen, I'd keep the money in the bank. Physical allows me to enjoy the hobby whilst hopefully protecting future buying power. 

[Hush]

Thanks everyone. I don't have a whole lot of time to spend reading and watching yt videos but this sunday afternoon has been very informative. I understand a lot better what is premium (besides the obvious manufacturing cost) and why it's a lot higher on silver. I also understood which are the best coins and bars to buy for actual trading purposes. Not that I'm gonna speculate on the price but if any bankageddon is coming (and it is coming) I wanna hold something that I'll be able to sell. Collectibles are absolutely awesome but definitely not my thing rn. 

[Hush]

Ok here's another one: I haven't seen 1oz gold Bitcoins here in the EU (I've seen some in the US). Any idea where I can find some or at least know where to look for?

 

Speaking about gold coins, am I right thinking that I should consider only 1oz ones if I want to own something with a good resell value (thus ignoring all the 1/10oz ones, 1gr ones, 3gr ones...)? For bars I believe it's different, meaning that as long as they are quality bars and certified, I can buy any size I want, from 1gr to 1oz and sell them easily. Correct?

Edited March 12, 2023 by Hush

[daca]

Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!

https://www.coininvest.com/en/search/?search_text=Bitcoin has bitcoin gold coins in stock

 

 

[Hush]

 

Quote

2 hours ago, daca said:

https://www.coininvest.com/en/search/?search_text=Bitcoin has bitcoin gold coins in stock

 

Talking about premium 

[Wileyfox]

Welcome to the forum!

The idea with premiums is - "premium in, premium out" e.g. if you buy a gold coin for say spot +4% try and realise spot +4% when selling, then your only transaction costs are the postage.

This can be achieved on the secondary market i.e. here on the forum. Have a look at the trade section, admittedly the EU section is a bit sparse but where there's a will there's a way.

[Hush]

I just received my first coins, all 1oz 'gov mint' one (not sure that's the correct term) like Kangaroo, Britannia, American Eagle... and to my mostly clueless disappointment there was no certificate of authenticity of sort, just the coins in a soft plastic envelope and the shipping invoice. I'm pretty sure there's nothing to worry about, they all look good and I think the seller is ok (celticgold btw) but if anyone can confirm that'd be much appreciated. Thanks again.

[Fenlander1]

Celtic gold are well known and I am sure your coins will be fine. Get used to checking your coins weight, thickness, magnet test, ping test and specific gravity are tests that can be done at home with very little equipment.

Always check dealers can make mistakes also.

[artalien]

4 hours ago, Fenlander1 said:

specific gravity

I like this test the best. As far as I understand it a postive result here is as good as gold. I realise it is not always possible to perform this test for fear of damaging the goods, a proof coin for example. Welcome to TSF.

[Hush]

Thanks a lot, I'll certainly look at performing those tests. Weight and measures are right and I'm sure it's all fine. I just gave it for granted that when buying PMs you get a certificate of some sort. I still believe bars have it though, since I saw some youtubers showing them as part of the package/blister. Do they all have it, or just some (and which ones)?

[Fenlander1]

Blister packed gold can be faked easily and are hardervto test due to the packaging look at the likes alibana or aliexpress.

That's not to say all bars are fake just be wary where you purchase from. Basically always check and don't be fooled by a certificate if counterfeiters can fake bars printed packaging is the easy part.

[jultorsk]

Welcome along.

Also, refer to @LawrenceChard

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

[Silverlocks]

On 12/03/2023 at 21:06, Hush said:

Ok here's another one: I haven't seen 1oz gold Bitcoins here in the EU (I've seen some in the US). Any idea where I can find some or at least know where to look for?

 

Speaking about gold coins, am I right thinking that I should consider only 1oz ones if I want to own something with a good resell value (thus ignoring all the 1/10oz ones, 1gr ones, 3gr ones...)? For bars I believe it's different, meaning that as long as they are quality bars and certified, I can buy any size I want, from 1gr to 1oz and sell them easily. Correct?

The answer is 'it depends.'

In the UK, there is tax legislation that makes coins that are legal tender in the UK exempt from capital gains tax, so there are certain advantages to stacking these coins in the UK that may not be reflected elsewhere.  Sovereigns, in particular, have a nice combination of being small and liquid, while still having low premiums and exemption from capital gains tax.

This legislation may not be the same in other countries.

Silver is subject to VAT in much of Europe, so it's not efficient for investment unless you buy/sell on the secondary market.  TSF here is as good a place as any to do this, although there are other forums where you can.  Generally buying from a dealer will place a hefty premium on silver due to the VAT.

Smaller gold bars usually carry higher premiums that 1oz or larger bars.  Similarly, fractional gold coins (e.g. 1/4oz) carry higher premiums that 1oz coins.

European gold coins such as LMU coins can often be purchased at low premiums, similarly to sovereigns.  These can be good value for stacking but lack the CGT exemption that Sovereigns enjoy here in the UK.  However, in your country, the tax legislation will be different, so this particular tax advantage may or may not apply.  One advantage of this type of coin is that they are easy to re-sell as they are quite small, yet also tend to have relatively low premiums by the standards of fractional gold.

As a generalisation, 1oz coins/bars and circulated gold coins (mind out for condition and rarity though) will carry the lowest premiums and tend to represent the best tradeoff of liquidity vs. premiums.  Sometimes good deals are available on fractional gold bars, but this is not always the case.  Buying bars that are too large (e.g. 100g) can cause problems with re-selling as not many folks have that much money for a single gold purchase.  Larger bars are really mostly used in vaulting arrangements - you don't see them traded on the secondary market all that often.

If you can afford gold, buy gold - it's generally more efficient (not to mention compact) than silver.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Silverlocks

[Silverlocks]

On 17/03/2023 at 17:16, Hush said:

I just received my first coins, all 1oz 'gov mint' one (not sure that's the correct term) like Kangaroo, Britannia, American Eagle... and to my mostly clueless disappointment there was no certificate of authenticity of sort, just the coins in a soft plastic envelope and the shipping invoice. I'm pretty sure there's nothing to worry about, they all look good and I think the seller is ok (celticgold btw) but if anyone can confirm that'd be much appreciated. Thanks again.

You won't get a certificate of authenticity with bullion coins, but the coins themselves do have security measures to make them harder to counterfeit.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

9 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

Silver is subject to VAT in much of Europe

VAT is applicable on silver throughout the entire EU Single Market. There used to be a loophole with Estonia whereby you could import silver @ 0% VAT and then transport it to any other country within the single market. Under pressure from the EU, the Estonians closed this loophole in 2021/22

[Hush]

Really good points again. I have to say, coming from the crypto market, that the similarities between gold/silver and BTC/altcoins are quite sound. In short: BTC, as gold, is king and everything else pales in comparison, but there's one reason why many people tend to buy other small-cap coins: the margin of growth or the extra gains you can get relative to those you would get buying the same amount in BTC. But the real problem in the case of PMs is of course the size of the stack.

 

I bought 1 gold coin (say 2000$) and 15 silver ones (say 500$) and while I was thinking how much easier it would be to buy more silver every time I have few hundreds euros left (instead of 'saving for a gold coin'), I immediately realized what a pain it would be to keep storing all that silver for years if not decades to come. And all for what, a possible (totally not granted) extra gain over gold? I don't know, but I probably like that gold coin a lot more than those shiny 15. I'm not regretting anything, but I won't be carving my walls out to fill em with safes to fill em with silver. Which is a pity to be honest.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Hush