Graded sovereigns

[GoldDiggerDave]

I have been building a database of graded sovereigns both from PCGS and NGC to use as a reference for myself.   I'm sure this has been debated before, what I am seeing with my own eyes it does appear in some cases the British descriptive verse the Sheldon scale are not completely compatible or certain attributes are scoring higher depending on the scale used.  I use the standard guide to grading British coins by Derek Allen. 

The British descriptive grade is highly based on the wear of the coin, not all and numerous other factor apply, however I am seeing graded sovereigns with medium-medium/high amounts of circulation wear which would grade VF for example  reach much higher on the Sheldon scale  especially if the fields are clean and have some original lustre, this is not always the case but I've seen enough to ask your opinions.

I don't know if this is how they score/grade the coin or if the grader at PCGS or NGC are being influenced by the coin having eye appeal over the circulation wear. I know this is a very subjective matter and even after a coin has been graded people can still disagree.  

Also would you say all coins get graded the same?  Are the rarer more numismatic coin subject to more scrutiny and more conservatively graded over a modern more common coin?  

I saw a while ago PCGS offering grading courses but it wasn't in the UK,  I would love to attend one of these course to see how they grade the coins, if anyone has any literature on how NGC or PSGS asses and grade coins I would very much like to see it.  

It would be good to hear what other have to say, I will drop a few pictures of coins I find on here for you to look at.  

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I have been building a database of graded sovereigns both from PCGS and NGC to use as a reference for myself.   I'm sure this has been debated before, what I am seeing with my own eyes it does appear in some cases the British descriptive verse the Sheldon scale are not completely compatible or certain attributes are scoring higher depending on the scale used.  I use the standard guide to grading British coins by Derek Allen. 

The British descriptive grade is highly based on the wear of the coin, not all and numerous other factor apply, however I am seeing graded sovereigns with medium-medium/high amounts of circulation wear which would grade VF for example  reach much higher on the Sheldon scale  especially if the fields are clean and have some original lustre, this is not always the case but I've seen enough to ask your opinions.

I don't know if this is how they score/grade the coin or if the grader at PCGS or NGC are being influenced by the coin having eye appeal over the circulation wear. I know this is a very subjective matter and even after a coin has been graded people can still disagree.  

Also would you say all coins get graded the same?  Are the rarer more numismatic coin subject to more scrutiny and more conservatively graded over a modern more common coin?  

I saw a while ago PCGS offering grading courses but it wasn't in the UK,  I would love to attend one of these course to see how they grade the coins, if anyone has any literature on how NGC or PSGS asses and grade coins I would very much like to see it.  

It would be good to hear what other have to say, I will drop a few pictures of coins I find on here for you to look at.  

 

You are correct that coin grading is subjective, even though the Big Two coin grading companies would have us believe that their gradings are objective.

An example. Quite often I might have 10 similar coins which are all very close to the same grade. Let's assume VF, for the sake of this example.

One has a slight edge knock, but otherwise it is at least as good as most of the others. Some collectors don't mind edge knocks, other are "allergic" to them.

One coin has two smaller edge knocks. Is this better or worse than the one above?

The third coin has less wear on the high points, and more detail showing, but has more scuffs and scratches on the fields. some collectors would prefer this coin seeing the positive aspect of the better detail, others will dislike it because of the greater scuffing.

The fourth coin has really nice clean fields, but has got more wear, so its fine details are not as good.

The fifth coin is weakly struck, so even though it might have had less wear and tear, its details are not as sharp.

Every single one of the 10 coins will have some better or worse points, and every single one may be regarded differently by different people. In fact, if ten people placed each coin in order of preference, we would almost certainly get 10 different results.

Professional third party grading does not remove or negate any of this, it simply sets a quasi-individual preference scale.

What @GoldDiggerDave says supports and agrees with my points above.

I have recently seen a few nice, attractive, collectable coins, which were well worth grading, but they have been rejected or "detailed" by grading companies as "cleaned". On some coins, this is obvious and clear, while on others I strongly disagree. In some cases, slight abrasive hairline striations have been judged as casued by cleaning, yet I am sure that much worse scratches could have been caused by all sorts of contact during circulation, yet would still get graded. It does not always make sense.

An analogy might be to notice that a person has a slight limp, therefore they can no longer be accepted as a normal human. This kind of thing has happened before.

For some coins "cleaned" consigns an otherwise excellent coin to the reject pile of numismatic eugenics.

😎

 

[dicker]

Agreed with all of the above.  

Grading is subjective and there are differences between how companies grade.

Hence the CAC green and gold stickers!

 

[Aran]

The PCGS channel on You Tube has some interesting (and quite detailed) webinars on grading. Worth a watch!

[Booky586]

NGC have a lightweight article on their grading standards for Sovereigns. Pretty sure it's not got the depth of detail you're really looking for but I've added the link anyway:

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/8292/learn-grading-british-gold-sovereigns/#:~:text=NGC's Coin Grading Scale is,circulation issues%2C its approximate condition.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Booky586

[TeaTime]

I've always maintained that the UK grading criteria is based on wear above all else. Other 'blemishes' often added as an addendum to the grade.

The US grading system seems to be all encompassing with each 'defect' knocking points off.

As LawrenceChard has stated - in the UK you can find a coin listed as Unc with edge-knock - in the US (Sheldon scale) that edge knock would prohibit it from getting a top grade. Horses for courses.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of my numismatic pieces got a 'details' description if sent to NGC for grading. Quite frankly i think you'd be hard-pressed to find any 300-400 year old circulating coin that hasn't has a rub or two 😁

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, TeaTime said:

I've always maintained that the UK grading criteria is based on wear above all else. Other 'blemishes' often added as an addendum to the grade.

The US grading system seems to be all encompassing with each 'defect' knocking points off.

As LawrenceChard has stated - in the UK you can find a coin listed as Unc with edge-knock - in the US (Sheldon scale) that edge knock would prohibit it from getting a top grade. Horses for courses.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of my numismatic pieces got a 'details' description if sent to NGC for grading. Quite frankly i think you'd be hard-pressed to find any 300-400 year old circulating coin that hasn't has a rub or two 😁

Yes, they rejected the 1933 USA gold $20 double eagle I submitted, just because I had filed the edge to acid test it!

😎

[GoldStatue]

In the past I've wondered whether buying a really ugly details cleaned coin and cracking it out the slab and getting someone to do the cleaning properly would be a cheap way to get a nice coin in my collection.

Relying on the grade only is a bit lazy really, some coins definitely have more eye appeal than others even though they have the same grade. I don't collect the morgan dollars but some of the rainbow toned coins are lovely.

[GoldDiggerDave]

Some pictures of definitions of grades from the PCGS website, I will add NGC's later.  

So anything above AU-58 can not have any wear?   There is something well out here folks, I have graded sovereigns from both PCGS and NGC graded MS63 and they both clearly have circulation wear.   

They must be applying other factors to bring the grades up higher and wear is not the limiting factor as it is in the descriptive British coin grading scale.(clean fields is definitely one of those factors from what I can see)

UNC is from MS63-MS70 (As per the standard guide to grading British coins)   This is why many are under grading or "grading to literately" I'm going to patent that term!  Sounds like some thing straight out of a Royal Mint pamphlet.  Using the British descriptive scale most would work backward from UNC  if there is any circulation wear. 

This is where the scales are out in my opinion PCGS sate no wear at MS60 where  UNC is MS63  

There is a disparity between what I'm reading and what I'm seeing......