Bought at Auction - Hungarian 100 Korona - Genuine original, restrike or fake?

[Bixley]

I bought this coin at Coin Cabinet auction number 60 - lot 58 - for 1800 Euros. The sale listing described the coin as follows: 'Gold 100 korona, 1908. I Ferenc József.
Crowned shield with angel supporters, KB below. Legend reads 'MAGYAR KIRÁLYSÁG' above, '100 KORONA' below. Designed by: Josef Reisner. / Ferenc József I standing. Legend around reads 'FERENCZ.JÓZSEF I.K.A.CS ÉS M.H.S.D.O.AP.KIR.'. Designed by: Carl Gerl. Milled edge' Choice mint state. Reference: KM-491; ÉH-1488; H-2197; Adamo-K10
Diameter: 37 mm. Weight: 33.8753 g. (AGW=0.9803 oz.) Composition: 900.0/1000 Gold.

Note that there is no mention of the coin being a restrike unlike other Austrian coins in the auction which were stated as being restrikes. The auction listing refers to KM491 which in my copy of Krauss World Coins notes this coin as having both originals and restrikes. However, my other reference book 'Schlumberger  European Gold Coins Guide Book' says that there are three versions of the 1908 coin, (1) the Original, (2) without UP, official restrike and (3) without UP, official restrike for the USA market.

So my questions for the experts are:

Is it a genuine original,

Is a restrike and when were the restrikes made,

Is it a fake,

If it is a restrike should I contact the auctioneers seeking an explanation for the mis description. Krauss gives a valuation of an original being worth four times more than a restrike.

The coin is the correct weight and diameter as noted on Numista.

Over to the experts....... 

[Zhorro]

What does "without UP" mean?

[Bixley]

I think it is a mint mark instead of the ‘KB’ on the other versions. But I’m open to being enlightened on this.

[James32]

@DuncanWylieWilson?

[DuncanWylieWilson]

1 minute ago, James32 said:

@DuncanWylieWilson?

Thank you for the tag.

From the photos provided it is within my opinion that this piece is an official proof-like restrike. NGC clearly delineate on their slabs whether this type is a restrike or an original. The originals are worth significantly more. 

This is still a nice coin but I can completely understand if you feel the auction description was incomplete or not fully adequate.

Cheers!

Duncan. ⭐️

[CollectForFun]

Could you please upload photos of the edge showing detail of the ornament and the stars? That's the best way to distinguish an old strike from newer restrikes.

In my experience with this year, given large amount of the restrikes produced and scarcity of the original strikes, it is best to assume a coin is a restrike unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, UP should stand for "új pénzverés", i.e. "new coinage" in Hungarian. Many other modern restrikes of old Hungarian coins are marked like that but this restrike of 1908 100 korona doesn't have it...

Edited April 22, 2022 by CollectForFun

[27carrots]

If it's a restrike, it is still less than 2.5% over spot which seems like a good price.

I guess if an original is worth 4 times as much, it should be priced at 7200 euros.

[Bixley]

45 minutes ago, CollectForFun said:

Could you please upload photos of the edge showing detail of the ornament and the stars? That's the best way to distinguish an old strike from newer restrikes.

In my experience with this year, given large amount of the restrikes produced and scarcity of the original strikes, it is best to assume a coin is a restrike unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, UP should stand for "új pénzverés", i.e. "new coinage" in Hungarian. Many other modern restrikes of old Hungarian coins are marked like that but this restrike of 1908 100 korona doesn't have it...

I have just got back from visiting a chum and sorting out the world’s problems. Naturally this necessitated downing a few beers so I a

mnot in a position at the moment to take accurate photos .I will get back on to this in the morning.

[Bixley]

12 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

Could you please upload photos of the edge showing detail of the ornament and the stars? That's the best way to distinguish an old strike from newer restrikes.

In my experience with this year, given large amount of the restrikes produced and scarcity of the original strikes, it is best to assume a coin is a restrike unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, UP should stand for "új pénzverés", i.e. "new coinage" in Hungarian. Many other modern restrikes of old Hungarian coins are marked like that but this restrike of 1908 100 korona doesn't have it...

Many thanks for the explanation of UP - my knowledge of Hungarian is zero.

The edge wording is 'BIZALMAM AZ OSI ERENYBEN' which with the aid of Wikipedia I understand to be the Hungarian motto of Ferencz Jozsef (Franz Joseph), the translation being 'My trust in virtue'.

Here is a picture of the edge ornament and stars. Any further information you can give me would be most welcome.

[CollectForFun]

1 hour ago, Bixley said:

Here is a picture of the edge ornament and stars. Any further information you can give me would be most welcome.

Thanks, photo is not the best, but that indeed looks like a restrike to me, so no surprise there, unfortunately.

As regards when and where these coins were made: according to my information, they were issued by the Budapest mint, although some US dealers mistakenly state on their websites they were made by the Austrian mint. Based on information available, Budapest mint started production of these restrikes some time after the World War II. As you noted in your first post, there were even several issues of these restrikes, some reportedly with matte finish of the emperor's figure, some with glossy finish. The latter ones are reported as produced after year 1974 in large quantities for the US.

As far as I know, it is not known how many were made. But they are definitely not like Austrian 100 corona 1915 restrike, which are still produced in large volumes and you could literally buy any amount of them straight from the Austrian mint. No, these 1908 Hungarian 100 koronas are currently not made anymore, there is definitely a limited quantity of them and I can imagine that they can start appreciating over time - after all, if produced around 1974, they are not that modern anymore.

In any case, new Austrian 100 corona is right now €1,831 at the Austrian mint, so your price for this scarcer coin seems more than okay. And it is still a magnificient coin in my opinion! 

Edited April 23, 2022 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Bixley said:

I bought this coin at Coin Cabinet auction number 60 - lot 58 - for 1800 Euros. The sale listing described the coin as follows: 'Gold 100 korona, 1908. I Ferenc József.
Crowned shield with angel supporters, KB below. Legend reads 'MAGYAR KIRÁLYSÁG' above, '100 KORONA' below. Designed by: Josef Reisner. / Ferenc József I standing. Legend around reads 'FERENCZ.JÓZSEF I.K.A.CS ÉS M.H.S.D.O.AP.KIR.'. Designed by: Carl Gerl. Milled edge' Choice mint state. Reference: KM-491; ÉH-1488; H-2197; Adamo-K10
Diameter: 37 mm. Weight: 33.8753 g. (AGW=0.9803 oz.) Composition: 900.0/1000 Gold.

Note that there is no mention of the coin being a restrike unlike other Austrian coins in the auction which were stated as being restrikes. The auction listing refers to KM491 which in my copy of Krauss World Coins notes this coin as having both originals and restrikes. However, my other reference book 'Schlumberger  European Gold Coins Guide Book' says that there are three versions of the 1908 coin, (1) the Original, (2) without UP, official restrike and (3) without UP, official restrike for the USA market.

So my questions for the experts are:

Is it a genuine original,

Is a restrike and when were the restrikes made,

Is it a fake,

If it is a restrike should I contact the auctioneers seeking an explanation for the mis description. Krauss gives a valuation of an original being worth four times more than a restrike.

The coin is the correct weight and diameter as noted on Numista.

Over to the experts....... 

The best advice and action in any case like this is to ask the auction house or supplying dealer first. They have handled the coin, catalogued it, so should know more about this specific individual coin than anyone else, for the time being.

Of course, this does not preclude also posting a question on a forum or getting a second opinion.

I have recently started to notice a spate of auction houses selling fakes, apparently without much care, attention or interest.

In your case, I do not suspect the coin is fake, but you do have a perfectly good point about the description, which is possibly incorrect and misleading.

With a 1908 Hungarian 100 Korona, my assumption would always be that it's a restrike unless or until I discovered otherwise. Assuming it to be a genuine original is an unsafe assumption.

 

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

Could you please upload photos of the edge showing detail of the ornament and the stars? That's the best way to distinguish an old strike from newer restrikes.

In my experience with this year, given large amount of the restrikes produced and scarcity of the original strikes, it is best to assume a coin is a restrike unless demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, UP should stand for "új pénzverés", i.e. "new coinage" in Hungarian. Many other modern restrikes of old Hungarian coins are marked like that but this restrike of 1908 100 korona doesn't have it...

I had been working on the theory that UP stood for "late striking" or similar in Hungarian, and managed to find Pénzverés (minting), but I failed to find Új (new), so well done for your detective work.

It's a pity that whoever contributed the Numista page used the acronym UP without explaining it, and it would have been preferable to have used ÚP, or Ú.P., but many writers are lazy.

😎

[Tib]

Give a photo about edge, but with 45 degre from one side... I need to see one side with the edge in the photo.
The main different original vs resrike... The direction of edge text....

If the edge at read direction, and the head is is up: restrike
If the edge at read direction, and the angels are up: original.

No other known difference. Because the "Artex" restrike (made at 1974) made by original tools like at 1808... Absolutely no difference.

Sorry my english, but I'm a hungarian collerctor 
If this is restrike, 1800 EUR was about real price.  
If this is original you bought at third price 

I hope, your angel will be up    

[Bixley]

I thought I would give this old post of mine a bump as there has been some discussion of the coin on recent posts.

[EvaH]

On 23/12/2022 at 12:10, Tib said:

Give a photo about edge, but with 45 degre from one side... I need to see one side with the edge in the photo.
The main different original vs resrike... The direction of edge text....

If the edge at read direction, and the head is is up: restrike
If the edge at read direction, and the angels are up: original.

No other known difference. Because the "Artex" restrike (made at 1974) made by original tools like at 1808... Absolutely no difference.

Sorry my english, but I'm a hungarian collerctor 
If this is restrike, 1800 EUR was about real price.  
If this is original you bought at third price 

I hope, your angel will be up    

 

On 23/12/2022 at 12:10, Tib said:

Give a photo about edge, but with 45 degre from one side... I need to see one side with the edge in the photo.
The main different original vs resrike... The direction of edge text....

If the edge at read direction, and the head is is up: restrike
If the edge at read direction, and the angels are up: original.

No other known difference. Because the "Artex" restrike (made at 1974) made by original tools like at 1808... Absolutely no difference.

Sorry my english, but I'm a hungarian collerctor 
If this is restrike, 1800 EUR was about real price.  
If this is original you bought at third price 

I hope, your angel will be up    

Kedves Tib

Kérlek, bocsásd meg a színvonaltalan magyarságomat

Elolvastam ezt a bejegyzést és csatlakoztam a fórumhoz. Nemrég szereztem be egy ilyen 1908-as koronás KB-t.
Amikor az angyalok felfelé néznek, az oldalsó szöveg megfelelően van elhelyezve.
Még nincs mérlegem, de mi a megfelelő súly ennek az érmének?

Van-e más végleges módszer annak meghatározására, hogy ez valódi érme-e?

Először is engedélyezni kell a fórumnak, hogy fotókat tegyek közzé, de szeretném, ha látná az érmémet.
  Tudja, hogy szabad-e aranyat behozni Magyarországra, vagy lefoglalja a vám?
A férjem haldoklik, és amikor elmúlik, szeretnék Pécsre költözni.

Ha az érmének több értéke van Magyarországon, szívesebben adom el ott.

 

 

 

[morezone]

7 hours ago, EvaH said:

 

Kedves Tib

Kérlek, bocsásd meg a színvonaltalan magyarságomat

Elolvastam ezt a bejegyzést és csatlakoztam a fórumhoz. Nemrég szereztem be egy ilyen 1908-as koronás KB-t.
Amikor az angyalok felfelé néznek, az oldalsó szöveg megfelelően van elhelyezve.
Még nincs mérlegem, de mi a megfelelő súly ennek az érmének?

Van-e más végleges módszer annak meghatározására, hogy ez valódi érme-e?

Először is engedélyezni kell a fórumnak, hogy fotókat tegyek közzé, de szeretném, ha látná az érmémet.
  Tudja, hogy szabad-e aranyat behozni Magyarországra, vagy lefoglalja a vám?
A férjem haldoklik, és amikor elmúlik, szeretnék Pécsre költözni.

Ha az érmének több értéke van Magyarországon, szívesebben adom el ott.

 

 

 

Google translation for others to follow:

Dear Tib

Please forgive my substandard Hungarian

I read this post and joined the forum. I recently acquired such a 1908 crown KB.
When the angels face up, the side text is positioned correctly.
I don't have a scale yet, but what is the correct weight for this coin?

Is there any other definitive way to determine if this is a genuine coin?

First, I need to allow the forum to post photos, but I want you to see my coin.
  Do you know whether gold is allowed to be brought into Hungary or is it seized by customs?
My husband is dying, and when he passes, I want to move to Pécs.

If the coin has more value in Hungary, I prefer to sell it there.