Strategy, I don't like Silver, am I wrong?

[Booky586]

6 hours ago, SidS said:

My only reservation with stacking tin is that it can develop tin pest.

Wow, just looked that one up, far worse than the pox that blights modern .999 silver coins.

Milk spotting hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet but it's another minus point for stacking bullion silver coins.

[Bigmarc]

22 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Wow, just looked that one up, far worse than the pox that blights modern .999 silver coins

Probably why most pewter items are 91% tin, same as most silver items are 925. 

[LemmyMcGregor]

On 15/04/2022 at 12:19, LawrenceChard said:

I only noticed this post because @jultorsk had linked to it from a different post.

I agree with your analysis, and conclusions.

The thought and effort you have invested to gather your data, and to display it clearly in a spreadsheet are highly commendable.

My usual advice, for investors, is to buy at the lowest premium, within reason, which also coincides with your findings.

As you show, one ounce gold coins tend to have a slightly lower premium than (approximately quarter ounce) gold sovereigns, so for bigger investors, they are arguably the best buy, but otherwise gold sovereigns come very close, and could be considered as a universal choice.

One small factor here is that secondary market prices for bullion coins are usually at lower premiums than for the current year's newly minted coins, but are not always quickly available from stocks. If bigger investors wanting quick delivery are "forced" to buy new coins, then the premium differentials between sovereigns and one ounce coins is slightly greater.

As you correctly point out, one of the main reasons for silver being relatively much more expensive, is VAT, which applies in the UK and the EU. Paying 20% tax up front on an investment makes little sense.

Production costs are also proportionally higher for silver coins than for gold coins, which accounts for some of the differential.

There are a few other factors which are worth considering:

For larger investors, it is worth at least considering buying silver VAT-free for overseas storage. Obviously some investors may be uncomfortable with this, and it does introduce a slight counterparty risk.

The case for buying VAT-free platinum is even stronger than for silver, as the production costs are relatively lower, therefore premiums nett of VAT are closer to those of gold, and lower than for silver.

Probably the main factors in favour of silver are affordability, and collectability. Many collectors and stackers cannot easily afford to buy gold coins of a sensible size. So for those who appreciate the aesthetic appeal of many coins, collecting silver coins makes a lot of sense, as long as they don't view it primarily as an investment.

A large diameter coin can showcase an attractive design, and detailed engraving, far better than a small diameter one. It is possible to buy large diameter silver coins for much less than small diameter gold ones.

Also, because of the lower value, silver coins could be left out on display, to be seen, admired, and appreciated, on a daily basis, whereas higher value gold coins might need to be locked away in a safe or vault, and therefore rarely seen and enjoyed.

A monster box of silver coins can make a great doorstop, while costing a fraction of the price of a similar gold one such as a London Good Delivery bar.

There are other factors which may influence individuals in different ways, but I don't want to turn this response into too much of an essay!

😎

 

I was re-reading this thread and your reply made me consider something about oversea storage.

I would not do it at present, I don't have enough to invest that would warrant such an interest. The way I see it, at present my holdings are very limited and can easily go in the cookie jar, at some point I will have to invest in some home security, after that is when it could be worth looking into it.

One thing that I thought could be worth though, considering my peculiar habits, would be to store abroad and bring limited quantities back once a year. Allow me to be clear, I am not interested in smuggling and I would not offend you by suggesting so in this forum, it does happen that I am Italian and once a year I travel to Italy, usually I drive through Switzerland, collecting in person would only add a limited amount of time to my journey and I believe that Swiss VAT at present is only around 7%, meaning I could make a small saving and

Could it be possible to vault somewhere in Switzerland and collect when I drive by on the way back? This would obviously have to be within the boundaries of the law, which I believe allows me up to £390 of imported good without declaring them, would be a fun way of saving a few quid and diversifying the Silver coins.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

I was re-reading this thread and your reply made me consider something about oversea storage.

I would not do it at present, I don't have enough to invest that would warrant such an interest. The way I see it, at present my holdings are very limited and can easily go in the cookie jar, at some point I will have to invest in some home security, after that is when it could be worth looking into it.

One thing that I thought could be worth though, considering my peculiar habits, would be to store abroad and bring limited quantities back once a year. Allow me to be clear, I am not interested in smuggling and I would not offend you by suggesting so in this forum, it does happen that I am Italian and once a year I travel to Italy, usually I drive through Switzerland, collecting in person would only add a limited amount of time to my journey and I believe that Swiss VAT at present is only around 7%, meaning I could make a small saving and

Could it be possible to vault somewhere in Switzerland and collect when I drive by on the way back? This would obviously have to be within the boundaries of the law, which I believe allows me up to £390 of imported good without declaring them, would be a fun way of saving a few quid and diversifying the Silver coins.

Good(ish) thinking, but:

Our Swiss storage deal is base on us adding or removing quite large "parcels" per transaction, so for example, we might send them 10,000 silver Britannias, and we might sell these in lots of 100, 500, etc. While we would deal with our smaller transactions internally, there would only be one goods received transaction at the vault.

Some vaults do have logistic distribution arrangements, but each transaction would attract a charge, typically at least €50 or more per time, so it might be uneconomic.

Collection would be done via a secure storage facility, which is quite efficient for large volume, but not designed for small collections, and not particularly convenient.

Guernsey, Livigno, and a few other places could theoretically work, but we no longer have a consumer storage arrangement in Guernsey, and no representation in Livigno, etc.

I guess you travel through the Ticino close to Mendrisio, Chiasso, etc. Nice part of the world. We intend to divert to the area next time we are en route, even if only to look at the age old smuggling routes between Switzerland and Italy, and enjoy coffee and cake of course.

😎

[LemmyMcGregor]

55 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Good(ish) thinking, but:

Our Swiss storage deal is base on us adding or removing quite large "parcels" per transaction, so for example, we might send them 10,000 silver Britannias, and we might sell these in lots of 100, 500, etc. While we would deal with our smaller transactions internally, there would only be one goods received transaction at the vault.

Some vaults do have logistic distribution arrangements, but each transaction would attract a charge, typically at least €50 or more per time, so it might be uneconomic.

Collection would be done via a secure storage facility, which is quite efficient for large volume, but not designed for small collections, and not particularly convenient.

Guernsey, Livigno, and a few other places could theoretically work, but we no longer have a consumer storage arrangement in Guernsey, and no representation in Livigno, etc.

I guess you travel through the Ticino close to Mendrisio, Chiasso, etc. Nice part of the world. We intend to divert to the area next time we are en route, even if only to look at the age old smuggling routes between Switzerland and Italy, and enjoy coffee and cake of course.

😎

Good guess, catching the A2 from Basel to Chiasso is probably the most direct route.

I found peculiar your mentioning of Livigno, so I googled it and... is it a duty free area? o_O

ITALY
The following territories are excluded from the scope of VAT: Livigno, Campione d’Italia and the territorial waters of Lake Lugano.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/system/files/2021-06/vat_rates_en.pdf

I do drive past Campione, if that is the case could be worth enquiring about a local shop and calling ahead to check if I can call in when I pass by, at worse I just have a look around, at best I could get a nice souvenire which is not your usual fridge magnet.

Edited April 21, 2022 by LemmyMcGregor

[LawrenceChard]

40 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

Good guess, catching the A2 from Basel to Chiasso is probably the most direct route.

I found peculiar your mentioning of Livigno, so I googled it and... is it a duty free area? o_O

ITALY
The following territories are excluded from the scope of VAT: Livigno, Campione d’Italia and the territorial waters of Lake Lugano.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/system/files/2021-06/vat_rates_en.pdf

I do drive past Campione, if that is the case could be worth enquiring about a local shop and calling ahead to check if I can call in when I pass by, at worse I just have a look around, at best I could get a nice souvenire which is not your usual fridge magnet.

From my limited experience in a few "tax / duty free" places, many prices are the same or higher than elsewhere.

I was aware of Livigno, because it is ski resort, and on my list to visit someday.

[LemmyMcGregor]

5 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

From my limited experience in a few "tax / duty free" places, many prices are the same or higher than elsewhere.

I was aware of Livigno, because it is ski resort, and on my list to visit someday.

I see where this is going, I could get a much better deal if I decided to have a donkey ride on the beach 🤣

Jokes aside, thank you very much for your replies.

[LawrenceChard]

7 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

I see where this is going, I could get a much better deal if I decided to have a donkey ride on the beach 🤣

Jokes aside, thank you very much for your replies.

Yes, and we still have a few donkey packs on Blackpool Beach.

There are now legal weight limits, eight-stone (51 kg). I think that relates to the riders, not the donkeys.

It probably excludes many obese children.

😎

[James32]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, and we still have a few donkey packs on Blackpool Beach.

There are now legal weight limits, eight-stone (51 kg). I think that relates to the riders, not the donkeys.

It probably excludes many obese children.

😎

I'd need to be saddled between 3 donkey's then! Can donkey's do the splits?

[Sharron]

I've loved reading all the comments..very interesting and informative..all I can say is I love Silver especially the monarchs series which to me seem to be a great collection if your lucky enough to purchase them on release day without the stress,queues etc...from my little bit of research it is evident that the same people always get the release coin on the day..dont know whether its just down to luck,inside information or just plain connections with the RM. U have my views but will keep my opinions to myself but to me who would really like to collect the 2oz version of the Monarchs have to go to the secondary market and if I wish to aquire have to pay...extortionate prices..which I won't do...flippers leave a bad taste in my mouth and have no respect for those just buying to flip..saying that just my opinion..but for us who really enjoy a series and do not want to pay £200-300 over the top...well I will just keep my thoughts and opinions about these people..I know alot on here are flippers,I don't mean any disrespect for making money but I personally think these people are.....well I won't say as its not appropriate, moreover I'd probably get banned if I said what I think of these **** 🤔😔

[James32]

1 minute ago, Sharron said:

I've loved reading all the comments..very interesting and informative..all I can say is I love Silver especially the monarchs series which to me seem to be a great collection if your lucky enough to purchase them on release day without the stress,queues etc...from my little bit of research it is evident that the same people always get the release coin on the day..dont know whether its just down to luck,inside information or just plain connections with the RM. U have my views but will keep my opinions to myself but to me who would really like to collect the 2oz version of the Monarchs have to go to the secondary market and if I wish to aquire have to pay...extortionate prices..which I won't do...flippers leave a bad taste in my mouth and have no respect for those just buying to flip..saying that just my opinion..but for us who really enjoy a series and do not want to pay £200-300 over the top...well I will just keep my thoughts and opinions about these people..I know alot on here are flippers,I don't mean any disrespect for making money but I personally think these people are.....well I won't say as its not appropriate, moreover I'd probably get banned if I said what I think of these **** 🤔😔

Who is charging £200-£300 over the top for a monarchs coin? I've seen many recently go for nearly rrp 

[HerefordBullyun]

3 minutes ago, James32 said:

Who is charging £200-£300 over the top for a monarchs coin? I've seen many recently go for nearly rrp 

Ive got a 2oz proof you can have 2k  

[Gordy]

19 minutes ago, James32 said:

Who is charging £200-£300 over the top for a monarchs coin? I've seen many recently go for nearly rrp 

indeed, i had one on here for 225.00

20 minutes ago, James32 said:

Who is charging £200-£300 over the top for a monarchs coin? I've seen many recently go for nearly rrp 

 

Just now, Gordy said:

indeed, i had one on here for 225.00

oh, AND I HAVE ONE MORE.... 😂

[Gordy]

25 minutes ago, Sharron said:

I've loved reading all the comments..very interesting and informative..all I can say is I love Silver especially the monarchs series which to me seem to be a great collection if your lucky enough to purchase them on release day without the stress,queues etc...from my little bit of research it is evident that the same people always get the release coin on the day..dont know whether its just down to luck,inside information or just plain connections with the RM. U have my views but will keep my opinions to myself but to me who would really like to collect the 2oz version of the Monarchs have to go to the secondary market and if I wish to aquire have to pay...extortionate prices..which I won't do...flippers leave a bad taste in my mouth and have no respect for those just buying to flip..saying that just my opinion..but for us who really enjoy a series and do not want to pay £200-300 over the top...well I will just keep my thoughts and opinions about these people..I know alot on here are flippers,I don't mean any disrespect for making money but I personally think these people are.....well I won't say as its not appropriate, moreover I'd probably get banned if I said what I think of these **** 🤔😔

I must admit, i love silver too.... the best part of getting a lovely coin for me is flipping it for the highest price i can get mwahahahaha....... 😂

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Sharron said:

I've loved reading all the comments..very interesting and informative..all I can say is I love Silver especially the monarchs series which to me seem to be a great collection if your lucky enough to purchase them on release day without the stress,queues etc...from my little bit of research it is evident that the same people always get the release coin on the day..dont know whether its just down to luck,inside information or just plain connections with the RM. U have my views but will keep my opinions to myself but to me who would really like to collect the 2oz version of the Monarchs have to go to the secondary market and if I wish to aquire have to pay...extortionate prices..which I won't do...flippers leave a bad taste in my mouth and have no respect for those just buying to flip..saying that just my opinion..but for us who really enjoy a series and do not want to pay £200-300 over the top...well I will just keep my thoughts and opinions about these people..I know alot on here are flippers,I don't mean any disrespect for making money but I personally think these people are.....well I won't say as its not appropriate, moreover I'd probably get banned if I said what I think of these **** 🤔😔

I do agree that it would be better if the people who like coins, particularly commemoratives or those with aesthetic design appeal, could obtain them more efficiently and with more certainty, but this seems to be harder to achieve than it should.

On the other hand, the Royal Mint's recent success in producing coins which have proved to be hugely popular, and with restricted issue limits, has been laudable because they seem to have been doing something right, but this has new stimulated interest in follow-up issues, which in some cases, have only or mainly seen great demand because to the expectation of big, instant profits, mainly from opportunistic flippers.

You can't really blame the flippers for seizing the opportunity, and they do take a slight risk that their coins do not sell, or go down in price, although buying direct from the Mint means that some would return their coins for a refund. Heads they win, and tails they don't lose, which is not really a sustainable model in the long term.

Dealers and distibutors can and do get some discounts off some issues, but not all. Some dealers offer new coin issues at competitive prices, similar to the RM prices, while there are some, mainly smaller dealers, who are only interested if they can get eye-watering, rip-off prices. Small e-bay vendors are often the worst for this, but there must be some buyers who are dumb enough to pay these prices.

Some mints use a "Subscription" model for some of their new coin issues, and this seems to work quite well, although there will be many who dislike the system, probably because its almost guarantees there will be no quick profits to be made.

There appears to be no easy solution to all this.

 

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Sharron said:

well I won't say as its not appropriate, moreover I'd probably get banned if I said what I think of these ****

No, won't get banned, just niggle a few members that's all. 

[Gordy]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

No, won't get banned, just niggle a few members that's all. 

no niggles here 😂 she can say what she wants, i've nothing to worry about over a few harsh words, its all good, its the sensitive types that will take it personally, and to be honest, everytime a coin or bar on here is sold it is a form of flipping cos we dont give them away for nowt unless we are after a qick sale.

I dont flip much anyway and what I do is usually well priced but we all are aware of the game and like Lawrence said there is an element of risk and invested time and energy in getting the RM new releases, but hey-ho, if they dont like the game, dont put on the kit and enter the playing field... become a spectator... ... and Sharron, I have a James I you can have for £220.00 for your heartfelt post if you wish... if not then all good my end... 👍 others it still £225.00 😂

[LemmyMcGregor]

For someone that is fairly new to the game, what's the deal with flipping? Is this an issue specific to limited editions in which some folks tend to get their hands early on multiple pieaces and make a margin on resale? I mean, same as scalping on concerts?

As for the Monarchs, I searched the topic and looks like an interesting collection, shame is proof only or, lucky me I could say, no temptations.

[Gordy]

1 minute ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

For someone that is fairly new to the game, what's the deal with flipping? Is this an issue specific to limited editions in which some folks tend to get their hands early on multiple pieaces and make a margin on resale? I mean, same as scalping on concerts?

As for the Monarchs, I searched the topic and looks like an interesting collection, shame is proof only or, lucky me I could say, no temptations.

so... quick explanation, new proofs come out for say £185.00 for a 2oz silver or (£5,000 for a scarce gold coin.... pmsl...) They get snapped up quick by collectors and people who want to move them on for a quick buck so some will put on the 2oz silver for in excess of £400.00 and some buyers who miss out will have a hissy fit when they pay £11,000 for that elusive gold coin (no names were harmed in the mention of this gold coin) 

so some dont mind it as it happens and will always happen, not illegal so no harm no foul and if people dont like the prices, they dont pay it and lose out or they pay it to get the coin they really really want....

If i like a set i will keep and if i'm not bothered it may or may not get 'flipped' and anything that does, does not go into the bank or pay bills or order myself a fresh bottle of sherry (terrible, Rum, I meant Rum guys) 

I use anything I make to buy some more... simple...

Some people cant or wont put the time in to log on and wait in a queue to take their chances so they either miss out or have to hit the secondary market... thats where the issue is...

 Its a game we can all play, some play it better than others, a bit like Chelsea getting humped off Arsenal... not a fan of either obviously, I just dont want to gloat too early when you have new rich owners .... time will tell on that one!!!!

mild flipping will be when you get a tube or more of a coin people will want so you may make a few quid on a sov or a silver coin or a 1/10th gold fractional as there is a thread going where a few members are collecting these so you might try to make a few quid.

Its all flipping in the end, just different levels, a few quid over seems to be widely accepted but a big profit isnt... double standards maybe but at the end of the day its personal choice, dont like the price, dont pay.... 

not so quick but i've had a shandy and my fingers wont stop....

I once heard Shakespeare was a raging alkie, thats why he was so successful.... 😂 

 

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Gordy said:

no niggles here 😂 she can say what she wants, i've nothing to worry about over a few harsh words, its all good, its the sensitive types that will take it personally, and to be honest, everytime a coin or bar on here is sold it is a form of flipping cos we dont give them away for nowt unless we are after a qick sale.

I dont flip much anyway and what I do is usually well priced but we all are aware of the game and like Lawrence said there is an element of risk and invested time and energy in getting the RM new releases, but hey-ho, if they dont like the game, dont put on the kit and enter the playing field... become a spectator... ... and Sharron, I have a James I you can have for £220.00 for your heartfelt post if you wish... if not then all good my end... 👍 others it still £225.00 😂

I have never seen anything over priced on the forum, 99% is community driven and see no reason for trying to rip people off. The market dictates the price either way and there are risks involved in flipping and personality I see nothing wrong with it. I was just pointing out to a new member that she shouldn't be afraid of being banned for sharing her thoughts.

[Paul]

3 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

I have never seen anything over priced on the forum

Hhhhhhmmmmmm I'll disagree with you on that point 

[LemmyMcGregor]

7 hours ago, Gordy said:

Some people cant or wont put the time in to log on and wait in a queue to take their chances so they either miss out or have to hit the secondary market... thats where the issue is...

....

I once heard Shakespeare was a raging alkie, thats why he was so successful.... 😂

I see, so in essence is an information and patience game, you want to make sure that you know ahead of the time what is going on and on top, on the day, make sure that you won't get distracted from that queue.

 

Alcohol kills germs and helps preserve, copious quantity help to live longer. That's my theory and I stick to it.

[FourNinesFine]

1 minute ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

Alcohol kills germs and helps preserve, copious quantity help to live longer. That's my theory and I stick to it.

As I understand it... pure alcohol is a cleaning agent. So, the stronger the alcohol, the cleaner you're living, right?

😎

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, Gordy said:

so... quick explanation, new proofs come out for say £185.00 for a 2oz silver or (£5,000 for a scarce gold coin.... pmsl...) They get snapped up quick by collectors and people who want to move them on for a quick buck so some will put on the 2oz silver for in excess of £400.00 and some buyers who miss out will have a hissy fit when they pay £11,000 for that elusive gold coin (no names were harmed in the mention of this gold coin) 

so some dont mind it as it happens and will always happen, not illegal so no harm no foul and if people dont like the prices, they dont pay it and lose out or they pay it to get the coin they really really want....

If i like a set i will keep and if i'm not bothered it may or may not get 'flipped' and anything that does, does not go into the bank or pay bills or order myself a fresh bottle of sherry (terrible, Rum, I meant Rum guys) 

I use anything I make to buy some more... simple...

Some people cant or wont put the time in to log on and wait in a queue to take their chances so they either miss out or have to hit the secondary market... thats where the issue is...

 Its a game we can all play, some play it better than others, a bit like Chelsea getting humped off Arsenal... not a fan of either obviously, I just dont want to gloat too early when you have new rich owners .... time will tell on that one!!!!

mild flipping will be when you get a tube or more of a coin people will want so you may make a few quid on a sov or a silver coin or a 1/10th gold fractional as there is a thread going where a few members are collecting these so you might try to make a few quid.

Its all flipping in the end, just different levels, a few quid over seems to be widely accepted but a big profit isnt... double standards maybe but at the end of the day its personal choice, dont like the price, dont pay.... 

not so quick but i've had a shandy and my fingers wont stop....

I once heard Shakespeare was a raging alkie, thats why he was so successful.... 😂 

 

I'll drink to that!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

Alcohol kills germs and helps preserve, copious quantity help to live longer. That's my theory and I stick to it.

 

1 hour ago, FourNinesFine said:

As I understand it... pure alcohol is a cleaning agent. So, the stronger the alcohol, the cleaner you're living, right?

😎

As long as you just use it to clean fingerprints and grease off your coins, then throw it away, you should be OK. 

Of course, it also depends what type of alcohol you are using.

"Chemistry, as a field, acknowledges three main types of alcohol: isopropyl, methyl, and ethyl alcohol. Each of these types of alcohol has different properties. Thus, it is essential for scientists and humans in common to differentiate which type of alcohol is which, if only for safety reasons."

😎