Gold Sovereigns Fakes Forgeries and Counterfeits

[LawrenceChard]

I have posted numerous photographs and information about fake gold sovereigns, or more grammatically, gold fake sovereigns.

I also thought I had created a "Topic" for them, but can't find it, so here goes:

We recently bought a parcel of gold sovereigns, which included the following forgery:

Reverse of Fake 1918-I Sovereign

Obverse of Fake 1918-I Sovereign

Niton XRF Result for Fake 1918-I Sovereign

Reverse of Fake 1918-I Sovereign with Close Up of Strange Mark

We see fake sovereigns almost on a daily basis, and this is just one such example.

To my mind there is nothing particularly unusual about this particular forgery.

This one appears to have an I mintmark, for the Bombay Mint in India.

The mintmark is rather mushy, so it could just be a "P" for Perth Mint.

It is another obvious forgery, and nothing remarkable about it, with a few possible exceptions*.

I invite any other TSF members to comment on, mainly on the dodgy features they can discern, and will then come back and add some further comments of my own.

* One of the exceptions is  a back-story. The seller also sold us a quantity of sovereigns some weeks ago, which included a 1916-M fake sovereign 

 

The gold content on this 1918-I fake is 916 ppt, which is perfectly in range, as is its silver content.

This would fool someone who was naive enough to think that a £16,000 Niton XRF testing machine can reliably detect fakes, and in this case, it probably did.

The seller told us that both lots of sovereigns he sold us included coins bought from us, and coins bought from a different (named) dealer, the same dealer in both cases.

We have seen fake gold coins from this well known dealer on numerous occasions before, While the evidence from these two examples would fall slighly short of criminal court solidity, I am happy that it provides further circumstantial evidence that the particular dealer is ignorant or negligent about fake coins, and possibly thinks himself an expert, although he must have been confronted by evidence to the contrary many times by now.

Because the above is not totally conclusive, I well refrain from naming the dealer publicly.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[papi1980]

Thank you for sharing this Lawrence! Is it just me, or the 1916s fakes we saw a few weeks ago were much better fakes that this one (sharper details, smoother base). I was wondering if that is due to the casting method? 

[dicker]

There is almost too much wrong here to list out!  

The Mis-Placed b******s are the cherry on the icing on the cake!

[dicker]

Similarly poor old Bayard has lost his manhood!

[Pete]

Spotted straight away a problem with the hand on the sword - not grasping showing fingers.
Seems to have a "willy" rather than an abdomen muscle.
Horse neck & main detail missing under the reign.
Dragon's left foot toes don't look right.
Missing detail on cloak.

Having said all the above, if I had bought this coin from a dealer and it met the dimensions and weight I would not have looked at it closely.

I did visit a dealer once to sell gold coins and all they did was a 2 second glance and everything depended on the scales, so fakes like this would automatically be accepted and sold on.
 

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, papi1980 said:

Thank you for sharing this Lawrence! Is it just me, or the 1916s fakes we saw a few weeks ago were much better fakes that this one (sharper details, smoother base). I was wondering if that is due to the casting method? 

They were probably all made using the same method, but perhaps with different levels of skill or care.

 

2 hours ago, dicker said:

There is almost too much wrong here to list out!  

The Mis-Placed b******s are the cherry on the icing on the cake!

Thank you for that, I was trying to work out what they were supposed to be!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Spotted straight away a problem with the hand on the sword - not grasping showing fingers.
Seems to have a "willy" rather than an abdomen muscle.
Horse neck & main detail missing under the reign.
Dragon's left foot toes don't look right.
Missing detail on cloak.

Having said all the above, if I had bought this coin from a dealer and it met the dimensions and weight I would not have looked at it closely.

I did visit a dealer once to sell gold coins and all they did was a 2 second glance and everything depended on the scales, so fakes like this would automatically be accepted and sold on.
 

You wouldn't really need to look at this closely, about 5 metres I reckon.

What sort of "dealer" was that?

😎

[scotwasp]

This kind of stuff is what makes guys like me really nervous about buying from anybody but a dealer for older gold coins.  I buy silver, to stack, second hand but I tend to only buy gold from one or two dealers, or if I really check the profile of who I am buying from and satisfy myself that they are not only honest but experienced enough to give me confidence that they would spot a dodgy item. 

This site has been fantastic for that journey, however in the main I prefer to pay a wee bit extra for my gold in the hope that the dealers are protecting me.  Hearing that a main dealer is selling fakes (albeit unknowingly) gives me the fear! 😳

 

 

[GreatCoins4U]

None of the details look crisp or sharp enough, very lacking in detail & it looks almost like it has been melted in the sun, or has started to dissolve under water, neither of which happen in the real world under normal circumstances I wouldn't have thought. That is apart from the obvious mistakes on the coin.

So its made out of real .916 gold is it, atleast the guy didnt lose all his money then did he?

[LawrenceChard]

27 minutes ago, scotwasp said:

This kind of stuff is what makes guys like me really nervous about buying from anybody but a dealer for older gold coins.  I buy silver, to stack, second hand but I tend to only buy gold from one or two dealers, or if I really check the profile of who I am buying from and satisfy myself that they are not only honest but experienced enough to give me confidence that they would spot a dodgy item. 

This site has been fantastic for that journey, however in the main I prefer to pay a wee bit extra for my gold in the hope that the dealers are protecting me.  Hearing that a main dealer is selling fakes (albeit unknowingly) gives me the fear! 😳

 

It is frustrating for me as a dealer to know it is happening, and having to be slightly restrained about it.

It is worth trying to look at as many coins as possible, genuine and fake, and gaining some experience from doing so.

There are some investors / stackers who don't seem to mind if they get sold a fake as long as the metal content is OK, but this is a short-sighted policy. Most dealers will only pay scrap value for fakes, the investor who accepts fakes should expect an exit loss.

I am not afraid to name names when I have indisputable evidence, and indeed have done so in the past.

[LawrenceChard]

5 minutes ago, GreatCoins4U said:

None of the details look crisp or sharp enough, very lacking in detail & it looks almost like it has been melted in the sun, or has started to dissolve under water, neither of which happen in the real world under normal circumstances I wouldn't have thought. That is apart from the obvious mistakes on the coin.

So its made out of real .916 gold is it, atleast the guy didnt lose all his money then did he?

No, not all his money, but...

We, and most other good dealers will only pay scrap value for fakes.

So yes, the owner made an exit loss compared with owning a genuine coin.

It is frustrating that there are dealers around who habitually sell fake coins.

[GreatCoins4U]

Yes it looks wrong on many levels, I guess if people buy alot of Sovereigns then maybe they just think it looks worn, but to me it looks wrong, not just worn, but ofcourse am not a Sovereign expert 🤪 I basically just try to buy proof coins, or ones with a special design, they are prettier obviously, but I imagine that they are harder to fake aswell, and it makes for a more interesting collection ofcourse 🧐

[Pete]

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

You wouldn't really need to look at this closely, about 5 metres I reckon.

What sort of "dealer" was that?

😎

Well known and once very popular

Edited March 27, 2022 by Pete

[ArgentSmith]

General lack of detail in areas that aren't high points and bonus lumps and bumps.  Is that a number 8 thats been stamped on the reverse?

[Happypanda88]

It could well be an indian made jewellery piece that are made from 22k gold. @h103efa has posted replica sovereigns below.

According to mintage records, the 1918P sovereign isn't rare so unlikely to have been faked to fool people as a high value piece.

 

 

[Arganto]

50 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

jewellery piece

Sovereign and half sovereign rings were popular with 'ard lads all over the UK at one time. I have a rather dashing scar from  some brave soul who sucker-punched me in the eye outside a local disco many moons ago. Having been turned onto gold as a grown up I keep my eye open for these sorts of things to see if a bargain can be had. The amount of mushy looking very obviously fake coins used in these mounts is astonishing (usually found in pawnbrokers and back alley jewellery shops). 

[LawrenceChard]

15 hours ago, Pete said:

Well known and once very popular

Once?

😎

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, ArgentSmith said:

General lack of detail in areas that aren't high points and bonus lumps and bumps.  Is that a number 8 thats been stamped on the reverse?

It looks like it at first sight, perhaps it's a Chinese lucky number!😎

 

[Pete]

4 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Once?

😎

"Once upon a time" [ well before the creation of The Silver Forum ] when us oldies could buy sovereigns and half sovereigns at <2% over spot not knowing what reign you would receive.  Lucky dip and often nice surprises !

Nowadays, what started off as simply bullion dealers morphed into some sort of on-line coin shops.
There are more than one of course in the UK.

Kind of sucks when prices for shields and older sovereigns have high premiums whilst only paying scrap value when buying back.
Opportunity to make some dosh for sure and why not ... but "once" ... is the era when gold coins were priced purely by weight of fine gold.

 

[LawrenceChard]

12 hours ago, Arganto said:

Sovereign and half sovereign rings were popular with 'ard lads all over the UK at one time. I have a rather dashing scar from  some brave soul who sucker-punched me in the eye outside a local disco many moons ago. Having been turned onto gold as a grown up I keep my eye open for these sorts of things to see if a bargain can be had. The amount of mushy looking very obviously fake coins used in these mounts is astonishing (usually found in pawnbrokers and back alley jewellery shops). 

So what you are saying is that you "keep my eye open", and someone else tries to close it for you!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

9 minutes ago, Pete said:

"Once upon a time" [ well before the creation of The Silver Forum ] when us oldies could buy sovereigns and half sovereigns at <2% over spot not knowing what reign you would receive.  Lucky dip and often nice surprises !

Nowadays, what started off as simply bullion dealers morphed into some sort of on-line coin shops.
There are more than one of course in the UK.

Kind of sucks when prices for shields and older sovereigns have high premiums whilst only paying scrap value when buying back.
Opportunity to make some dosh for sure and why not ... but "once" ... is the era when gold coins were priced purely by weight of fine gold.

 

It sounded like there was one in particular you were thinking about, and I was wondering which one.

😎