Too Many Palpitations - Censor the Word "Platinum"

[Pete]

I don't know if any other fellow stackers are having the same experience, but I am wearing thin with so many posts using the word "Platinum" in the title creating immediate interest only to find it is the friggin' jubilee. Got to start a campaign to restrict the use of 'Platinum' in a precious metals forum to the metal and not the anniversary.
😣
 

[James32]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't know if any other fellow stackers are having the same experience, but I am wearing thin with so many posts using the word "Platinum" in the title creating immediate interest only to find it is the friggin' jubilee. Got to start a campaign to restrict the use of 'Platinum' in a precious metals forum to the metal and not the anniversary.
😣
 

I know how you feel, I came here for platinum Jubilee items 😂

[LawrenceChard]

22 hours ago, Pete said:

I don't know if any other fellow stackers are having the same experience, but I am wearing thin with so many posts using the word "Platinum" in the title creating immediate interest only to find it is the friggin' jubilee. Got to start a campaign to restrict the use of 'Platinum' in a precious metals forum to the metal and not the anniversary.
😣
 

Is this OK?

It is a 2022 one ounce bullion PLATINUM Completer coin.

😎

Edited March 2, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[Pete]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Is this OK?

It is a 2022 one ounce bullion PLATINUM Completer coin.

😎

Absolutely perfect !!
That's what I am talking about - REAL Platinum on the S.F. and not some party pieces celebrating Her Majesty where everything is prefixed as 'Platinum'.
As for the Completer - already have one thanks.

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Absolutely perfect !!
That's what I am talking about - REAL Platinum on the S.F. and not some party pieces celebrating Her Majesty where everything is prefixed as 'Platinum'.
As for the Completer - already have one thanks.

Good, glad to hear it.

I hope you didn't pay too much for it!

https://www.chards.co.uk/2022-queens-beasts-completer-one-oz-platinum-bullion-coin/15029

Price Comparison Against Other UK Bullion Dealers - Updated at 02-Mar-2022 06:56

Qty	Chards (Excl Delivery)	Chards (Inc Delivery)	G*
1	£1,053.64	£1,059.64	£1,251.60
2	£1,052.69	£1,056.19	£1,251.60
5	£1,048.87	£1,050.67	£1,244.40
10	£1,044.11	£1,045.31	£1,242.00

🙂

 

[Pete]

I bought mine on January 11th from the Royal Mint and paid them £936 including VAT ( so £150 or thereabouts on its way to the government to be spent wisely no doubt 🤑)

[LawrenceChard]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

I bought mine on January 11th from the Royal Mint and paid them £936 including VAT ( so £150 or thereabouts on its way to the government to be spent wisely no doubt 🤑)

Sorry we couldn't get them in quicker, but the RM retail side do have an obvious delivery advantage over us.

For a better comparison:

The Queen's Beasts 2022 1oz Platinum Bullion Coin

Bullion | 999.5 Fine Platinum

Price:From £873.81

Rated 0 out of 5

OUR PRICING* (ESTIMATED)

QUANTITY	UNIT PRICE (EX VAT)
1	£891.85
2+	£888.88
5+	£885.83
10+	£873.81

In Stock

PRODUCT CODE: BQBC22PC

Which looks cheap, until you see:

Total £891.85

£891.85 per unit

(Ex. VAT, if applicable)

And the RM do not even show the VAT inclusive price, until you add it to basket, then View Basket:

Basket Total

£891.44

Investment VAT

£178.29

Delivery:

calculated at checkout

Estimated storage fee

£0.00

 

Total

£1,069.73Inc VAT

Which gives a pretty poor User Experience on their site, in my opinion.

I suspect you knew when you bought it, that it would be available elsewhere for a lower price later, but that's a big price difference.

 

 

 

[NewCoins]

Has anyone tried finding platinum proof platinum jubilee coins on ebay or whatever ?

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, NewCoins said:

Has anyone tried finding platinum proof platinum jubilee coins on ebay or whatever ?

We @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer were offered some, but our experience is that platinum does not sell well in the UK, partly because of VAT.

Was there a particular coin you were interested in? We may be able to help.🙂

[NewCoins]

38 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

We @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer were offered some, but our experience is that platinum does not sell well in the UK, partly because of VAT.

Was there a particular coin you were interested in? We may be able to help.🙂

I was looking after they went on sale.

Not that interested at the moment, but keeping an eye on the trial pieces 

[westminstrel]

The 1 Oz platinum £5 Platinum Jubilee coin is a gorgeous coin - I’ve seen pics here - and at some point I would like to own one.

[Pete]

17 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

We @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer were offered some, but our experience is that platinum does not sell well in the UK, partly because of VAT.

Was there a particular coin you were interested in? We may be able to help.🙂

Half of my platinum was bought from the European Mint in Estonia VAT free.
Building sets ( e.g. Queens Beasts ) does mean I cannot avoid the VAT, of course, but would you turn over more platinum, secondhand, by lowering the VAT or adopting the differential VAT that saw the likes of GS.be and others across the channel, pre-Brexit, take the lion's share of orders in silver ?

 

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Half of my platinum was bought from the European Mint in Estonia VAT free.
Building sets ( e.g. Queens Beasts ) does mean I cannot avoid the VAT, of course, but would you turn over more platinum, secondhand, by lowering the VAT or adopting the differential VAT that saw the likes of GS.be and others across the channel, pre-Brexit, take the lion's share of orders in silver ?

 

Half of my platinum was bought from the European Mint in Estonia VAT free.

Excellent, well done!

Most secondhand platinum stuff we get in sells very quickly, using special scheme.

It is not within our power to lower the VAT rate, and the differential VAT scheme ended with Brexit I believe.

 

[ArgentSmith]

9 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Most secondhand platinum stuff we get in sells very quickly, using special scheme.

I know you're the expert and experienced but if you sell (out)? quickly using second hand scheme is it possible that you could charge a little more and or pay a little more to increase turnover. Im sure the market for platinum wouldn't be so thin if someone made a market with a narrower spread.

[LawrenceChard]

4 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

I know you're the expert and experienced but if you sell (out)? quickly using second hand scheme is it possible that you could charge a little more and or pay a little more to increase turnover. Im sure the market for platinum wouldn't be so thin if someone made a market with a narrower spread.

We don't get offered much, probably because there is not much floating around the UK market, mainly because of the VAT when new! (Catch 22?).

We do buy most of what we get offered, and I am not aware of any / much we miss.

[ArgentSmith]

I'm going to guess you pay 90-95% spot, am I close?

[LawrenceChard]

1 minute ago, ArgentSmith said:

I'm going to guess you pay 90-95% spot, am I close?

I don't actually know, but would expect it to be 100% at least, except on medallions etc.

[ArgentSmith]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

I don't actually know, but would expect it to be 100% at least, except on medallions etc.

100% is excellent, I personally believe (if it's viable to offer a 10% spread)? a dealer would pretty much corner the used PT market which I'm sure is slowly growing. Please update on your bid price if possible because I know "Bdiars" would offer 95% max.

Would a 10% spread be a viable proposition for second hand?

People just don't seem to accept the same premiums/spread they do with silver, maybe because the price point is closer to Gold?

cheers 👍

 

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

100% is excellent, I personally believe (if it's viable to offer a 10% spread)? a dealer would pretty much corner the used PT market which I'm sure is slowly growing. Please update on your bid price if possible because I know "Bdiars" would offer 95% max.

Would a 10% spread be a viable proposition for second hand?

People just don't seem to accept the same premiums/spread they do with silver, maybe because the price point is closer to Gold?

cheers 👍

 

Bdiars?

I would happily pay more than 100% on larger quantities, again depending what the items were.

Especially with platinum historically cheap compared with gold.

 

[ArgentSmith]

2 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Especially with platinum historically cheap compared with gold.

 

Ill give you a ring when it's historically expensive 😀

[Pete]

I really don't understand the platinum market in the UK.
Firstly there is very little around to buy and prices are grossly inflated in my opinion.
This tells me it is a seller's market so they list high prices hoping someone is sucked-in to buy.

I just checked the Royal Mint website.
A 1 oz bullion Britannia Pt coin is listed at £893 ( excluding VAT ) and spot at the time £812
That's a margin of 10%.
If you wanted to purchase this coin it would cost £1,071 with the VAT.

Now I obtained a quote to sell the same coin back to the Mint and they offered £654 only 80% of spot.
I find this impossible to believe so here is a screenshot.

Maybe there is a bug in their calculation but this does appear way too low.

Now to the VAT question.
How can differential VAT or margin VAT be used on some products including silver coins but not on secondhand platinum ?
I think it is down to the dealer or VAT registered seller to decide and it is a real pity that all secondhand silver and platinum is not sold on the margin scheme.
If it was then maybe the demand for new would be hit really hard so dealers aren't prepared to loose margin and who can blame them really.
Perhaps a business opportunity for an entrepreneur only dealing in secondhand that is VAT registered ??

PS - I am not selling so no offers please.
I am looking to accumulate but not at silly prices
 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Pete
added PS

[James32]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

I really don't understand the platinum market in the UK.
Firstly there is very little around to buy and prices are grossly inflated in my opinion.
This tells me it is a seller's market so they list high prices hoping someone is sucked-in to buy.

I just checked the Royal Mint website.
A 1 oz bullion Britannia Pt coin is listed at £893 ( excluding VAT ) and spot at the time £812
That's a margin of 10%.
If you wanted to purchase this coin it would cost £1,071 with the VAT.

Now I obtained a quote to sell the same coin back to the Mint and they offered £654 only 80% of spot.
I find this impossible to believe so here is a screenshot.

Maybe there is a bug in their calculation but this does appear way too low.

Now to the VAT question.
How can differential VAT or margin VAT be used on some products including silver coins but not on secondhand platinum ?
I think it is down to the dealer or VAT registered seller to decide and it is a real pity that all secondhand silver and platinum is not sold on the margin scheme.
If it was then maybe the demand for new would be hit really hard so dealers aren't prepared to loose margin and who can blame them really.
Perhaps a business opportunity for an entrepreneur only dealing in secondhand that is VAT registered ??

 

 

That's a shocking buy back price 

[ArgentSmith]

21 minutes ago, Pete said:

I really don't understand the platinum market in the UK.
Firstly there is very little around to buy and prices are grossly inflated in my opinion.
This tells me it is a seller's market so they list high prices hoping someone is sucked-in to buy.

I just checked the Royal Mint website.
A 1 oz bullion Britannia Pt coin is listed at £893 ( excluding VAT ) and spot at the time £812
That's a margin of 10%.
If you wanted to purchase this coin it would cost £1,071 with the VAT.

Now I obtained a quote to sell the same coin back to the Mint and they offered £654 only 80% of spot.
I find this impossible to believe so here is a screenshot.

Maybe there is a bug in their calculation but this does appear way too low.

Now to the VAT question.
How can differential VAT or margin VAT be used on some products including silver coins but not on secondhand platinum ?
I think it is down to the dealer or VAT registered seller to decide and it is a real pity that all secondhand silver and platinum is not sold on the margin scheme.
If it was then maybe the demand for new would be hit really hard so dealers aren't prepared to loose margin and who can blame them really.
Perhaps a business opportunity for an entrepreneur only dealing in secondhand that is VAT registered ??

PS - I am not selling so no offers please.
I am looking to accumulate but not at silly prices
 

 

In reality Pete with supply being subject to VAT you cant really expect to pay less than +120-125% spot from a dealer otherwise where would supply come from? it would surely diminish. I'm thinking there must be a profit offering a 10-15% spread on margin scheme but that would mean a dealer paying 5 or 10% over spot? I doubt dealers would do that because they can't just dump at profit.

Surely a 10-15% spread would be worthwhile for a dealer but who knows?

PS don't sell to the RM lol!

[LawrenceChard]

54 minutes ago, Pete said:

I really don't understand the platinum market in the UK.
Firstly there is very little around to buy and prices are grossly inflated in my opinion.
This tells me it is a seller's market so they list high prices hoping someone is sucked-in to buy.

I just checked the Royal Mint website.
A 1 oz bullion Britannia Pt coin is listed at £893 ( excluding VAT ) and spot at the time £812
That's a margin of 10%.
If you wanted to purchase this coin it would cost £1,071 with the VAT.

Now I obtained a quote to sell the same coin back to the Mint and they offered £654 only 80% of spot.
I find this impossible to believe so here is a screenshot.

Maybe there is a bug in their calculation but this does appear way too low.

Now to the VAT question.
How can differential VAT or margin VAT be used on some products including silver coins but not on secondhand platinum ?
I think it is down to the dealer or VAT registered seller to decide and it is a real pity that all secondhand silver and platinum is not sold on the margin scheme.
If it was then maybe the demand for new would be hit really hard so dealers aren't prepared to loose margin and who can blame them really.
Perhaps a business opportunity for an entrepreneur only dealing in secondhand that is VAT registered ??

PS - I am not selling so no offers please.
I am looking to accumulate but not at silly prices
 

 

"I really don't understand the platinum market in the UK."
Firstly there is very little around to buy and prices are grossly inflated in my opinion.
This tells me it is a seller's market so they list high prices hoping someone is sucked-in to buy."

We never see volume demand for platinum in the UK. I think I explained above that this is partly because of the VAT.

Also although there is a traditional belief in gold, and a healthy market for it, this has never existed for platinum.

I can also tell you that when VAT exemption for Investment Gold occurred in January 2000, the UK market was small at first. I believe our taxfreegold.co.uk  did a lot to expand the market.

The UK market for silver bullion was also almost non-existent back then.

This leads me to think that demand for platinum will also take time to grow.

"I just checked the Royal Mint website.
A 1 oz bullion Britannia Pt coin is listed at £893 ( excluding VAT ) and spot at the time £812
That's a margin of 10%."

I must correct you there, that's a premium of 10%, which is not the same as a margin.

Platinum does cost more to process than gold, and the RM will produce platinum coins in lower quantities, which tends to increase unti costs.

"If you wanted to purchase this coin it would cost £1,071 with the VAT.

Now I obtained a quote to sell the same coin back to the Mint and they offered £654 only 80% of spot.
I find this impossible to believe so here is a screenshot."

I certainly agree that their "buy-back" price is a rip-off . The RM are not "dealers" or "market-makers".

They probably also do not operate a special secondhand scheme.

You may be interested to know that, perhaps almost 20 years ago, we bought 50 x one ounce platinum bullion coins, which we did not really want to buy at the time, and we struggled to shift them at as little as 1% premium, on special scheme, therefore VAT inclusive. Such was the state of the UK platinum market at the time.

Edited March 3, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, ArgentSmith said:

Ill give you a ring when it's historically expensive 😀

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=ring4284enhanceprincesscutyellowdiamonds050ctandwhiteround028ctdiamondsinplatinum.html

😎