Marsh Scarcity Rating - How Accurate?

[Booky586]

26 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Not saying it's not there but my eyes are done in and I can't see it.  Have you go the link 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NICE-QUALITY-1862-Queen-Victoria-Shield-Gold-Sovereign-/373911043206?mkcid=16&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0&redirect=mobile

[GoldDiggerDave]

Yes I'd say it's there an easy one to over look, left is the ebay listing right is a London coin auctions listing.  

[Britannia47]

1 hour ago, Booky586 said:

Marsh (2021) now shows the Ansell as R2 "very rare". That's quite a fall from R5 in 1980 but I suppose it reflects its popularity and hence its well searched for status. Maybe there's not many left out in the wild.

I'm relatively new to sovereigns, still learning, and I search eBay and other auction sites for rarer sovereigns with varieties that aren't marked as such, hoping to bag a bargain. Doing so I have never seen an Ansell, but other R2 and R3 sovereigns appear quite regularly. I rarely manage to win the auction though, others are spotting these varieties too and paying top prices too.

 

Not had a chance to look at the 2021 Marsh. Assumed the rating would still be R4. Even dropping 2 grades is a big fall, but new information received by Steve Hill  must have dictated an R2 rating. That's how it works. I agree with Dicker & SS  there must be loads more out there!  Sorry boys. So why don't I have one in my collection?! 😠 Anyway, hope you find what you're looking for. Although it's great to have an expensive 'exotic' (R3+) sovereign  my hot tip is to go for Gillicks. They are going to be sought after, with the Queen coming to the end of her reign. Get a 1957 for a starter!  Good-luck.

 

[Booky586]

Thank you, the hunt continues!

[sovereignsteve]

19 hours ago, Booky586 said:

 I search eBay and other auction sites for rarer sovereigns with varieties that aren't marked as such, hoping to bag a bargain. Doing so I have never seen an Ansell, but other R2 and R3 sovereigns appear quite regularly. I rarely manage to win the auction though, others are spotting these varieties too and paying top prices too.

 

I used to browse ebay quite a lot doing exactly this. Used to find a fair few and managed to win several.

I find it's not worth my time these days; too many people doing the same and rarely do you find an undiscovered one. Sellers are more on the ball as well.

[Foster88]

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I’d ask here as the 1859 Ansell has been well discussed in this thread.

Do you think this is an Ansell sovereign? It isn’t mine but is advertised as so and I can’t make out that second line in the hair ribbon.

Its sort of there but not.

What do you think @dicker @sovereignsteve?

[dicker]

Personally I can’t see it clearly enough defined.  

[sovereignsteve]

No I would say not, although there is a hint of a possible gap between 2 lines but it doesn't go all the way across. The relative dimensions of the lines and gaps aren't correct for a genuine Ansell.

The ribbon edge of a normal 59 is quite broad and rounded, I suspect this one has either a defect in that detail or someone has been at it with a scalpel trying to form a gap!

@LawrenceChardwill have seen many more than me in his time.

 

compare with a real one

[Petra]

What are we looking at/ looking for?

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, Foster88 said:

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I’d ask here as the 1859 Ansell has been well discussed in this thread.

Do you think this is an Ansell sovereign? It isn’t mine but is advertised as so and I can’t make out that second line in the hair ribbon.

Its sort of there but not.

What do you think @dicker @sovereignsteve?

No!

Have you got a link, so we can see who the culprit is?

4 hours ago, dicker said:

Personally I can’t see it clearly enough defined.  

I agree, but seller probably doesn't want you to be able to see it clearly!

31 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

No I would say not, although there is a hint of a possible gap between 2 lines but it doesn't go all the way across. The relative dimensions of the lines and gaps aren't correct for a genuine Ansell.

The ribbon edge of a normal 59 is quite broad and rounded, I suspect this one has either a defect in that detail or someone has been at it with a scalpel trying to form a gap!

@LawrenceChardwill have seen many more than me in his time.

 

compare with a real one

Good forensic work!

27 minutes ago, Petra said:

What are we looking at/ looking for?

https://www.chards.co.uk/1859-gold-sovereign-victoria-young-head-shield-ansell-graded/5326

😎

[Petra]

12 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

No!

Have you got a link, so we can see who the culprit is?

I agree, but seller probably doesn't want you to be able to see it clearly!

Good forensic work!

https://www.chards.co.uk/1859-gold-sovereign-victoria-young-head-shield-ansell-graded/5326

😎

Cheers 👍

[LawrenceChard]

On 21/02/2022 at 09:44, sovereignsteve said:

I have seen this version of events several times in the literature so would assume it will be an accurate transcription from Ansell unless some pillock got it wrong somewhere and everyone else has blindly copied it!

It would not be the first time that thousands of "experts" have simply copied and pasted, or copied and re-edited incorrect information.

One of the most amusing (to me) examples concerns the number of serrations on (one ounce) gold Krugerrands:

Some of this episode is related here:

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/krugerrand-misinformation-serrations/402

But there is a more detailed version here:

We need to update our Chards web page!

😎

[Foster88]

5 hours ago, dicker said:

Personally I can’t see it clearly enough defined.  

I thought that too, that’s why I’m surprised it was listed as an Ansell sovereign.

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

No I would say not, although there is a hint of a possible gap between 2 lines but it doesn't go all the way across. The relative dimensions of the lines and gaps aren't correct for a genuine Ansell.

The ribbon edge of a normal 59 is quite broad and rounded, I suspect this one has either a defect in that detail or someone has been at it with a scalpel trying to form a gap!

@LawrenceChardwill have seen many more than me in his time.

 

compare with a real one

Agreed, something isn’t quite right with it.

39 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

No!

Have you got a link, so we can see who the culprit is?

I agree, but seller probably doesn't want you to be able to see it clearly!

Good forensic work!

https://www.chards.co.uk/1859-gold-sovereign-victoria-young-head-shield-ansell-graded/5326

😎

I should have added the link to the auction page, it was late when I posted last night.

This has now sold this morning for £2,600 + fees.

https://www.warrenandwignall.co.uk/catalogue/lots/A55A26D53F7575150C37DF03A793E61B09E578302553E305756659CC306CEB46/2A29640469B1A3702BD4742F312B842A/fine-sale-mid-20th-century-urban-art-jewellery-wat-lot-78/?d&action=2

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/02/2022 at 19:45, Booky586 said:

Here's a recent find on eBay, 1862 R over E in BRIT, rated R3 in Marsh. So a higher rarity than an Ansell. I've seen 2 or 3 of these this year where the seller hasn't recognised the error/variety. Compared to no sightings of an Ansell. Perhaps there are a lot of this variety and it's just not an appealing one to collect, hence it goes by unnoticed?

It really needs a "normal" one to enable easy comparison.

On 22/02/2022 at 20:05, GoldDiggerDave said:

Not saying it's not there but my eyes are done in and I can't see it.  Have you go the link 

Should have gone to SpecSavers.

Why do TSF members almost invariably omit to include links?

😎

[LawrenceChard]

21 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

I thought that too, that’s why I’m surprised it was listed as an Ansell sovereign.

Agreed, something isn’t quite right with it.

I should have added the link to the auction page, it was late when I posted last night.

This has now sold this morning for £2,600 + fees.

https://www.warrenandwignall.co.uk/catalogue/lots/A55A26D53F7575150C37DF03A793E61B09E578302553E305756659CC306CEB46/2A29640469B1A3702BD4742F312B842A/fine-sale-mid-20th-century-urban-art-jewellery-wat-lot-78/?d&action=2

I just e-mailed the auction house with my / our concerns.

😎

[Booky586]

39 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Why do TSF members almost invariably omit to include links?

Links to eBay sales web addresses aren't much use for a historical record, eBay delete the sales pages after 90 days and all you get is a broken link. Try opening this one now:

On 22/02/2022 at 20:32, Booky586 said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NICE-QUALITY-1862-Queen-Victoria-Shield-Gold-Sovereign-/373911043206?mkcid=16&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0&redirect=mobile

 

[Foster88]

5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I just e-mailed the auction house with my / our concerns.

😎

I think they’ve gone by the assumption that it’s an 1859 so it must be an Ansell sovereign. However all Ansell sovereigns are 1859 in date but not all 1859 sovereigns are Ansell sovereigns as you already know.

 

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, Booky586 said:

Links to eBay sales web addresses aren't much use for a historical record, eBay delete the sales pages after 90 days and all you get is a broken link. Try opening this one now:

 

Yes, that one must have been 90+ days, unless the listing was cancelled.

Ebay links are OK if they are recent. If I include any, Ioften take and add a screenshot in addition, but of course it tooks a little more time.

😎

[Foster88]

@LawrenceChard do keep us updated if you receive a reply.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Foster88 said:

@LawrenceChard do keep us updated if you receive a reply.

I did receive a reply, which included "We will not be paying the vendor out until the buyer is completely satisfied with the coin."

He did attach the "condition report" photo was you had already posted.

I went on to give some further "advice", which is probably all I could do.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, Foster88 said:

@LawrenceChard do keep us updated if you receive a reply.

 

16 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I did receive a reply, which included "We will not be paying the vendor out until the buyer is completely satisfied with the coin."

He did attach the "condition report" photo was you had already posted.

I went on to give some further "advice", which is probably all I could do.

😎

I received an update from the auction house this morning.

They had drawn the bidder's attention to the doubts expressed, and given him the opportunity to withdraw from the purchase, which he did, so the coin is back with the seller.

Although this was not the originally preferred outcome, it does demonstrate that the auction house is ethical, and places its reputation before a quick profit.

😎

[Booky586]

Following on from the discussion on rarity of Ansell sovereigns, I'm just doing some reading of "The Royal Mint" by Ansell and I came across a line that hinted at the quantity of Ansell sovereigns minted. The book states:

"... more than a quarter of a million of sovereigns were coined from unannealed blanks obtained from brittle gold... The gold alluded to as coined in 1859... contained antimony, arsenic and lead, so was predisposed to become brittle..."

The total sovereign mintage in 1859 was 1,547,603 and if over 250,000 were the Ansell variety then that is 1 in every 6 of that year.

Is there really that many of them around? I've been searching for sleepers of this coin and I've never seen one yet. I can only assume that they've already been filtered out of the population as it's such an expensive and collectable coin.

[dicker]

27 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Following on from the discussion on rarity of Ansell sovereigns, I'm just doing some reading of "The Royal Mint" by Ansell and I came across a line that hinted at the quantity of Ansell sovereigns minted. The book states:

"... more than a quarter of a million of sovereigns were coined from unannealed blanks obtained from brittle gold... The gold alluded to as coined in 1859... contained antimony, arsenic and lead, so was predisposed to become brittle..."

The total sovereign mintage in 1859 was 1,547,603 and if over 250,000 were the Ansell variety then that is 1 in every 6 of that year.

Is there really that many of them around? I've been searching for sleepers of this coin and I've never seen one yet. I can only assume that they've already been filtered out of the population as it's such an expensive and collectable coin.

Like you, I have not found a sleeper but they do come up for sale reasonably regularly.  There will be some out there waiting to be discovered but this variation is pretty well k own and something a lot of folk look for.  

[Booky586]

15 minutes ago, dicker said:

There will be some out there waiting to be discovered but this variation is pretty well k own and something a lot of folk look for.

Yes, I totally agree, if one surfaces I'm sure it would be snapped up quickly.

It was the quantities that surprised me, I thought a quarter of a million was a lot compared to other rarities. My time night be better spent looking for those.

👍

 

[dicker]

You make a good point on the mintage numbers.  

I see more Half Sovs from Sydney and Melbourne mints that have way lower mintages than I do 1859 Ansell’s.

Perhaps there was a re-melt of some of the 250k?