Questionable authenticity on sovereigns

[Zhorro]

28 minutes ago, papi1980 said:

All appreciate the insights, especially Lawrence. I just realise who little I know about sovereigns and fakes…

Forgiven me for the stupid question(or if that has been discussed before), but it seems most fakes are George and the dragon. Have anyone seen a fake (metallic or numismatic) of a shield sovereign

my presumption is that it is much harder to cast? 

There are "reproductions" of shield sovereigns on eBay for about £5.  I am not sure how good they are.

[LawrenceChard]

36 minutes ago, papi1980 said:

All appreciate the insights, especially Lawrence. I just realise who little I know about sovereigns and fakes…

Forgiven me for the stupid question(or if that has been discussed before), but it seems most fakes are George and the dragon. Have anyone seen a fake (metallic or numismatic) of a shield sovereign

my presumption is that it is much harder to cast? 

There is no reason that a Victorian shield sovereign would be harder to fake than any other design.

As it happens, I can't remember seeing many fake shield or earlier sovereigns.

We do see fake Victoria Young Head St. George, Jubilee, and Old Heads. Edward VII fakes are common, as are George V.

QE2 fakes are not very common, in fact I get fairly excited when I find one.

My guess is that when counterfeiting was common, there were more George V, along with the others I have listed, either in circulation, or circulating in bullion markets, in which case, they would be less likely to be examined closely. Plus whatever the forgers had to hand is the most likely for them to copy, especially if making moulds from an existing coin. It would be more difficult to copy something you couldn't see, or didn't have.

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 24/02/2022 at 15:12, MonkeysUncle said:

This sort of thing is precisely why I only buy gold from respectable dealers. I may pay more for the privilege, but I can be pretty damn sure that a man/ lady far better at spotting dodgy coins than I has done their job. The dealers profit margin is a small price to pay in my books.

Seeing your location, have you heard the story of the American tourist visiting the Vatican and / various international cathedrals and churches?

 

[dicker]

There has been the odd Counterfeit Sov go through St James and London Coin Auctions - sold as counterfeit and seemingly consisting of Platinum. Example here: https://londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=172&searchlot=1334&searchtype=2

@LawrenceChard Your reproduced article here is rather good.

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovereignfakesin20thcentury.html

Best

Dicker

 

[dicker]

Also, I have also head of lead shield sovereigns (read somewhere, rather than have seen). Not sure if these are counterfeit or some sort of Mint test process. Anyone?

Best

Dicker

[dicker]

Ok - I have found one of the lead sovereign trials if anyone is interested. 

https://minterrornews.com/discoveries-6-9-20-ngc-certifies-unique-great-britain-lead-die-trial.html

Im certain that I have seen one of a shield Sov as well.

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

There has been the odd Counterfeit Sov go through St James and London Coin Auctions - sold as counterfeit and seemingly consisting of Platinum. Example here: https://londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=172&searchlot=1334&searchtype=2

@LawrenceChard Your reproduced article here is rather good.

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovereignfakesin20thcentury.html

Best

Dicker

 

Thanks,

I have been wanting to buy or appraise and photograph a platinum counterfeit sovereign for many years. A few years ago, one of our local customers mentioned seeing one in a Canadian coin shop. Unfortunately, the dealer didn't know much about it, and wanted more than it was worth IMO, so we didn't buy it.

I think we also have a page about platinum fake sovereigns somewhere.

Come to think about it, if the RM produced a special issue sovereign in platinum, now might be a good time, and it would probably be a nicer colour than the "gold" ones.

I had all but forgotten about our Robert Matthew article, so may re-read it.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

5 minutes ago, dicker said:

Ok - I have found one of the lead sovereign trials if anyone is interested. 

https://minterrornews.com/discoveries-6-9-20-ngc-certifies-unique-great-britain-lead-die-trial.html

Im certain that I have seen one of a shield Sov as well.

Yes, lead is an ideal material for die testing. It is surprising that there aren't more of them on the market.

It can't be too long before the RM realise this. Some people might also prefer the colour.

😎

[dicker]

I saw a platinum one go through St James Auction in 2013 or 2014 pretty sure it was flagged as counterfeit. It was enough for me to make a note on my odd sovereigns spreadsheet to spend some time looking at these.  

I also have a note that I saw one for sale by an Aussie dealer at a similar time.

 

 

[dicker]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, lead is an ideal material for die testing. It is surprising that there aren't more of them on the market.

It can't be too long before the RM realise this. Some people might also prefer the colour.

😎

I had a good idea about this - I thought it might be a good idea to make lead tokens from the material recovered from Big Ben / Windsor Castle etc.  If the RM got their act together and produced a decent design and strike, I think people would buy to fund restorations.

The RM did similar with the large silver ingots of silver recovered from the Gairsoppa so why not historic monuments.

 

[LawrenceChard]

16 minutes ago, dicker said:

I had a good idea about this - I thought it might be a good idea to make lead tokens from the material recovered from Big Ben / Windsor Castle etc.  If the RM got their act together and produced a decent design and strike, I think people would buy to fund restorations.

The RM did similar with the large silver ingots of silver recovered from the Gairsoppa so why not historic monuments.

 

It's an idea, but it might go down like a lead balloon.

 

[MonkeysUncle]

12 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Seeing your location, have you heard the story of the American tourist visiting the Vatican and / various international cathedrals and churches?

 

Aye. Local rate call from t'Minster! 

[LawrenceChard]

On 24/02/2022 at 13:01, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

 

Here are the photos of the 1916-M fake sovereign I mentioned:

Awful reverse!

The obverse is just as bad:

And for anyone who thinks a Niton or other XRF machine can tell genuine from fake:

The gold content is within normal range, but the silver content is a big clue.

This is an excellent example of human eyes, brains, and experience being better than dumb reliance on technology.

😎

@BackyardBullion videoed me using our Niton XRF testing machine on this very coin.

His YouTube video has just been published here:

 

I hope you enjoy watching.

P.S. It didn't fool me!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 27/02/2022 at 10:50, papi1980 said:

All appreciate the insights, especially Lawrence. I just realise who little I know about sovereigns and fakes…

Forgiven me for the stupid question(or if that has been discussed before), but it seems most fakes are George and the dragon. Have anyone seen a fake (metallic or numismatic) of a shield sovereign

my presumption is that it is much harder to cast? 

There is absolutely no reason why a shield sovereign would be harder to cast than a St. George one.

It is likely that "circulation" fakes were made whenever gold sovereigns and other coins were in circulation, but for the counterfeiter to make a profit, they would need to be debased, base metal, lightweight, thicker, or some combination of these factors, all of which would make them easily detectable, so there was probably no time when such forgeries existed in any large quantity, and I am not aware of contemporary accounts of forgeries being a significant problem. Therefore there would be no great incentive to forge shield sovereigns.

When sovereigns ceased circulation, and when they started to accrue a premium over and above their face, and intrinsic, value, then there existed a profit potential for counterfeiters. I have not been  alive long enough to have direct personal inside information about when this started, but it was certainly a problem which caused production to be resumed in 1949 to 1951, and again in 1957. At that time, it would be been stupid to make fakes of coins which would have been unusual because of their relative scarcity in circulation, and would be sensible to make whatever coins were more commonly seen. 

🙂