CollectForFun

I couldn't find the drawing of this particular medal in this sketchbook. Either it is in another one which is not digitalised (as this one is dated ca. 1860, which does not match with year 1872 given for the medal), or it is in this one but on some of the pages that are not photographed (as it is apparent they unfortunately did not photograph both sides of every page).

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Are you suggesting that one of our biggest "competitors" tells lies?

I don't even like the title "Lady Liberty".

Also, I have not yet seen the original drawings, but I imagine they are far better then the somewhat crudely styled engraving on the medallion.

😎

His sketchbook is quite amazing actually

https://www.si.edu/object/george-t-morgan-sketchbook-ca-1860:nmah_1417932

9 hours ago, KevjustKev said:

There are coins which are minted by national mints, and each year these mints produce a different dated coin the same design, correct?

These coins includes ones like the Britannia from the UK, ASE from the US, Maple Leaf from Canada, I think you get the idea. A goodly number of stackers/collectors consider these world coins. My question is, can coins like the Armenian Noah's Ark and the Somalia Elephant be classed as world coins? They are made each year, nut not minted by those countries, but on their behalf.

 Also, Aus makes the Kookaburra and Koala each year, do these count?

I think you are perfectly free to decide which coin you will class as a world coin. If Noah's Ark fits your definition, then fine. There is no official authority that would order you to class it differently.

Personally, I'm missing any sense in this whole concept of the "world coins". Like, what are those coins which can't be classed as world coins - regional coins? Martian coins?

The only sensible meaning for the term world coins to me is "coins from abroad", as opposed to coins from my country.

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

I read their sales blurb, and detected 3* missing apostrophies, and a bit of curious English / Irish?

That cringeworthy sales blurb itself is much worse than a few mistakes. 

By the way, “One of the most beautiful designs of all times”, in quotation marks of course, but says who? They don't bother to mention because of course that quote is just made up.

When you compare both designs, there are some instantly recognisable elements with the Lady Liberty - are there? Like, a female facing left?

Aren't all "Smithsonian" branded items on the market just copies of the original item from the Smithsonian collection?

This one seems to be an issue using just the design from the Smithsonian archive - or maybe there were even original dies that were copied but the below info which sheds some additional light does not mention the dies so presumably those who struck these medals just licensed the design created by George T. Morgan from the SI.

https://www.dublinmintoffice.ie/smithsoniangold

10 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

No standard definition, but for the UK, it really means coins not minted in any of the normal places you'd normally buy from, but still minted locally as coins in their country of origin.  Mexican coins would probably qualify as 'world gold', and most South American coins certainly would.  U.S. or Canadian coins probably wouldn't be viewed that way here.

Not sure the Somali Elephant would qualify as world gold, as it's minted by an outfit in Germany that's spun a deal with the Somali government and predominantly sold as bullion.  They were never intended to be issued as circulated currency in Somalia, although they are technically legal tender in the way that Britannias are here.

Well this makes sense but is not consistent with the opening post which classes Brits as the world coins but not the Kooks or Koalas, that's why I asked what their idea behind the classification is.

Define "world coins" please?

I assume you meant something like oz coins which are the most representative for that country?

5 hours ago, modofantasma said:

https://auragentum.de/halb-pfund-sovereign-gemischt

Anybody spot what is wrong here? 

 No clue... what?

It's always such a pity when a rare old coin is damaged due to being used in jewellery.

On the other hand, some of those coins wouldn't perhaps otherwise be preserved to our times at all. So it is what it is. It is better to accept that a certain coin looks as it does, otherwise you will never really enjoy it in your collection and then it's maybe better to let it find a home at someone else...

1 hour ago, JohnA1 said:

Could these have been part of the unspoken campaign to deter PM ownership and keep prices low?

Absolutely but you have successfully seen through all of that so should buy as much as you can while those campaigners still manage to keep prices low!

(sorry, couldn't resist...)

On 16/01/2023 at 01:49, Silverlocks said:

Not exactly a photo of my stack but a screen shot of explorer set to 'large icons' on a directory with pics of my sovereigns.

It's so satisfying to see the coins so neatly ordered in the grid with every coin sized the same, but... how about that bottom right corner?!? Need one more!

16 hours ago, BitsandBobs said:

I don't think the coins was actually made by Westminster, But they are the company that has put the set together, I just can't find any information on this particular Euro coin set, So not sure how much it would be worth, I have seen lot's of the coins in this set being sold individually but not as a set,

Personally I don't expect that coins like this would have any particular resale value over the value of silver contained in them. Of course Westminster most likely marketed the set originally as something very valuable and asked excessive money for it but that is irrelevant for you now. And so if you know that coins sell individually, do they sell with any premium?

21 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

...

The S.A.M. Was the only mint to show on the certificate exactly what the alloy consisted of - in this case 8.33% copper. It’s a pity the RM doesn’t declare its alloy, but it doesn’t take a genius to tell its ‘Red’ gold! for the Sovereign!

...

Isn't the colour of the krugerrands still more yellow than the colour of modern sovereigns?

You were spoiled by having a good-looking female monarch for way too many years... Welcome to the normal world of old/beardy/bald/big ears/big nose/whatever male monarchs the citizens of other monarchies had to put up with on their coins for centuries. Deal with it! ☺️

12 hours ago, Ape said:

Thanks, I had look at Gold.de and some interesting sites. Many don't deliver outside Germany. 

But this one seems like a good find, good prices on 1 oz....Anyone use these?

https://www.silber-werte.de/en/1-Kruegerrand

This site you found belongs to one of the best known German dealers so there shouldn't be any doubt about their trustworthiness.

Regarding your preference of buying from the dealer - from many points of view it's understandable, but there's one undeniable benefit of buying from the forum- you see exactly the coin you get. If you buy from a dealer, especially if it is a "various years" second-hand offer, the coin you get may have some imperfections. You never know until you open the package.

So what's the official verdict @LawrenceChardplease? Is the coin from the first analysis, which is probably not authentic due to too low gold reading, #1, or #2 from the photos?

And did you consider the 2nd result of .912-.913 +/-.003 satisfactory for a .917 coin?

Good news regarding the upcoming Austrian auction discussed above - the lot with fake sovereign has been withhdrawn:

In moments like this I wonder how the auctioneer may feel like, realising that they almost sold clearly fake coin. Although we all make mistakes, so most important is that these folks were at least willing to listen to a well meant advice and some unsuspecting buyer may have been saved an unpleasant surprise...

Catawiki is gradually becoming the second eBay, as far as fake coin offers are concerned. They try to create an impression that the listings are checked by the experts, but I have personally reported 4-5 fake coins just in the previous few months and have serious doubts that their experts can really guarantee trouble-free listings. And some lots have not been even withdrawn after my reports!

If anyone was interested I can upload photos of some of the fakes their "experts" approved for sale. Some were absolutely laughable, if you know what to look at.

Regarding this sovereign, it does look a bit weird. The seller however regularly sells a lot of authentic gold coins and bullion so in his case I would say he's no scammer but genuinely someone who just got fooled by this coin, if it's indeed counterfeit. But it looks like that - does it even have reeded edge?

32 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I double-checked them, but anything is still possible!

😎

Well, this will contain some spoilers, but:

According to the file names, #1 is suspect fake and #2 is scratched.

According to your post with Niton results, the one titled suspect fake is #2 and the one titled scratched is #1.

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Our Niton XRF test results are interesting:

 

The above is for coin #2

While the result below is for coin #1, which has some gouges under the portrait:

 

Does this change or influence anyone's opinions?

😎

Ok, having now looked at the file names, are you sure you didn't mix-up the numbering, or the photographer the coins???

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

That's my best block capital printing, which I use as my handwriting would probably defeat Alan Turing!

😎

For the sake of not causing an embarassing confusion one day you could at least try writing "U" and "G" in AU and AG more differently..! 😃

I think they are both of the same - either both fake, or both genuine. I'm leaning towards fake. Both are covered by unusual small "craters" - could be bag marks, but I would expect standard bag marks look differently. Then there is that strange discoloration - not only "coppery spots" or patina that does not look quite right but also some greyish spots and especially whatever is going on with the eyebrow on #1?

The sharpness of the strike may also look wrong in some areas but because my 5 minutes of looking at these coins was about by 4 minutes 55 seconds longer than my time looking at any rand coin ever before, I will rather stop my dubious analysis now and wait for the official results!

2 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

With regards to premiums on gold coins, I think it could also depend on where you are in the world. 

In the UK, sovereigns and Brits are popular and in high demand. So I suspect dealers can now play the market by jacking up premiums and still see punters queueing up for them. 

Elsewhere in the east, LPM sells 1oz Brits typically about 4% premium and current year Pandas around 3.5%. There are sometimes deals on Elephants. But Buffalos and Libertads are in the league of their own and difficult to justify buying them.

Good point. At German dealers, 1oz Brits start at 2.5-3.5% and sovs at 5-6% premium. Of course you can also find dealers who ask 10%. But in general it does not seem the UK coins would be suddenly less available or more expensive on German market, as an example.

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I was going to leave it to you, but then I thought, why not:

To: office@numis24.com

Dear sirs,

Are you aware that this coin

https://numis24.com/lots/view/63a191b845aa810e9cc2d916

is an extremely obvious counterfeit / imitation?

Regards,

Lawrence Chard

Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
Blackpool
FY4 1RJ
England, UK.

Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081

www.chards.co.uk

Thanks, and because Numis24 is basically just a web platform for running online auctions, I contacted also the auction house, the name of which is "Coins of History", directly. I am quite sure Numis24 would forward the message to them, just to be 100% sure that they really receive it, so let's see what they'll do.

And so that you do not think that it is just Austrian numismatists that lack knowledge on British coins (which some admittedly do, clearly), it applies also vice versa: I have recently had an exactly opposite case of Spink UK selling an Austrian 4 ducat which was somewhat suspicious, if for nothing else than at least for the stated weight of 10.90 grams, which was 3 grams less than it should have been. So I inquired about the coin and while I did not receive any response, the lot was withdrawn, so presumably my doubts were justified:

https://www.spink.com/lot/22180000728

Meanwhile in Austria:

https://numis24.com/lots/view/63a191b845aa810e9cc2d916

Lot description:

Great Britain 1 pound 1927, with various countermarks, EF/UNC (!?!), rare 😂

@LawrenceChard - do you want to engage in a discussion with yet another Austrian auctioneer, or shall I try this time?