Ebay Seller Morality

[Fenlander1]

I thought this subject would make for an interesting discussion.

1st of all let me state morally I couldn't sell items like these and never will (reputation is everything in my book and i like to sleep at night) but it makes me curious to hear other peoples thoughts.

Over on the binlord thread @Spyderhighlighted a listing where the seller was honest (ish) in his description of a fake (replica) sovereign yet the bidding still went to over £200. My moral dilemma is even though the seller clearly states in his description it is a fake is the seller wrong for preying on people's gullibility (greed) or is it up to the buyer to apply due diligence to stop themselves getting caught out.

Big businesses prey on the gullibility of people all the time yet they are seen as success stories and are praised for there good in society.

I appreciate everyone's views will be different therefor making for an interesting discussion.

The listing in question 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134865429602?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mdbjd2cttwe&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=XV_rZwRPTDu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited January 11 by Fenlander1

[Anteater]

I can't see how that listing could be considered honest.

The headline description of the lot is a lie. It's one thing to clarify something (eg condition) in the longer description below, but it's another to try to get away with stating something that actually contradicts it.

Also, since the 1899 sov is still legal tender, doesn't that make any realistic "replica" a fake?

[Petra]

The seller in question is selling other coins that are not original. Regardless of what he put lower down in his gold listing your listing heading should be accurate. The idea also that in as few words as possible to include words that will be picked up in any search. Anyone who thinks they are getting a sovereign for the price listed either hasn’t got a clue or is being rather hopeful and probably gets what they deserve. The question here isn’t really why is this person ripping people off, rather, why are people buying this …. or is something else turning up in the post?🤔🫢

[Agaupl]

Clearly trying to deceive imho. Yes the bidders are clearly not the brightest to not read the ad, but unless it’s in the title of the ad and top line of the description the seller is hoping for it. 

Edited January 11 by Agaupl

[Fenlander1]

I agree totally he is preying on the gullibility (greed) of others and in my mind he is devoid of morals but unfortunately this is what large businesses do on a daily basis.

For me the title should state exactly what is for sale. But in the same breath the buyer must take some responsibility for bidding on such items.

[treetop1280]

All eBay questions send my way , plenty of pit falls for sellers , eBay tend to back the buyer in most cases , Iv been f ked many at times on eBay  as a seller ,  plenty of loop holes for sellers to sell fake items , been happening for years , don’t sell gold in eBay , and don’t buy gold on eBay 

[Coverte]

Whilst he tries to evade come backs by not stating it's gold, or any material, it is/was listed in the gold coin area.

I believe if that were reported to ebay the items maybe removed - either way, very bad practice and why I very rarely even log into ebay anymore.

My last purchase was a Schmidt roller ball pen refill for a couple of pounds last year, that's about my limit there, as Amazon only had those in multi packs.

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

Stupid people gotta be punished somehow. I call it Divine Intervention.

Edit: above was a joke. Below is possibly what happens. People could list on eBay and ask friends and clients to bid until the listing reaches desired prices. Then some other illicit stuff could be included in the deal. Though for that purpose you can also pay with half sovereigns

Edited January 11 by SeverinDigsSovereigns

[Agaupl]

I think we need to not fall into the trap of expecting the average punter to know what most of us in the TSF know. These people aren’t scamming people in the know. They are scamming innocent people. That person will never invest in gold again as it’s ’dodgy And dangerous’. Gives the whole bullion industry a bad name. 

[treetop1280]

Buy a sovereign on eBay , pay the money , receive item , claim it’s fake , open a case , send the item back ( but put something else in , at the same weight) take photos of the special delivery envelope/ parcel , , the case will drag on between you and the seller ,  hold your ground, eventually eBay will back you , and send a refund , eBay might refund the seller as well , as they have a slush fund , for such cases , it’s a scrum bag  move and people do it👎

[Fenlander1]

It really is the wild west on there.

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

1 hour ago, Agaupl said:

I think we need to not fall into the trap of expecting the average punter to know what most of us in the TSF know. These people aren’t scamming people in the know. They are scamming innocent people. That person will never invest in gold again as it’s ’dodgy And dangerous’. Gives the whole bullion industry a bad name. 

I am inclined to agree. But I'm afraid there are a minority of "in the know" TSF members who believe the PM market is a scam itself, that everything is so heavily manipulated that gold price bears no correlation with real world events, that spot doesn't reflect the worth of precious metals, to the point where they'd think they live in a simulation.

The next moment they try to sell you silver.

They are either terminally delusional or deliberately spreading misinformation to aid their sales. To me they are in no place to criticise eBay sellers who list "copy" coins to hook stupid buyers.

I'm not referring to anyone I've recently interacted with. I saw that kind of behaviour a couple months ago, but never since (perhaps because I blocked them?)

Edited January 11 by SeverinDigsSovereigns

[Coverte]

1 hour ago, Agaupl said:

I think we need to not fall into the trap of expecting the average punter to know what most of us in the TSF know. These people aren’t scamming people in the know. They are scamming innocent people. That person will never invest in gold again as it’s ’dodgy And dangerous’. Gives the whole bullion industry a bad name. 

Which is why I got my lad to log in and report the item as being both in the wrong section and of deliberately misleading wording;

the bigger problem being, he'll be back doing it again within days, if not hours, selling such £1-50 Aliexpress/DHgate/similar items for £100-200 is clearly very lucrative for those without conscience.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

It's morally repugnant but we are not a moral society - we operate under Common Law. Our Common Law is based on a moral code - Christianity - but we are not an explicitly Christian nation nor are we a theocracy. We are a secular nation. In this example the only thing that matters is the law

The law of the UK forbids the sale of fake or counterfeit precious metals. There are severe penalties for violations (maximum unlimited fine, 2 years in prison for a business owner)

The terms and conditions of eBay forbid the sale of fakes or replicas

Therefore these items should not be for sale on eBay by law, which is a separate issue from morality in a secular state (theocracies include KSA, Iran, Sudan, Yemen, Vatican City, Mauritania and Afghanistan)

[Agaupl]

4 minutes ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

I am inclined to agree. But I'm afraid there are a minority of "in the know" TSF members who believe the PM market is a scam itself, that everything is so heavily manipulated that gold price bears no correlation with real world events, that spot doesn't reflect the worth of precious metals, to the point where they'd think they live in a simulation.

The next moment they try to sell you silver.

They are either terminally delusional or deliberately spreading misinformation to aid their sales. To me they are in no place to criticise eBay sellers who list "copy" coins to hook stupid buyers.

I'm not referring to anyone I've recently interacted with. I saw that kind of behaviour a couple months ago, but never since (perhaps because I blocked them?)

Scams are scams and scammers are scammers. 

[Scuzzle]

The advert is disingenuous, fair enough it's in the listing that it's a fake but it's not prominent and it's not in the sales title. There is a lot of genuine terminology which is intented to mislead, the seller hopes people will miss the admission that it's a fake and if it sells for over the odds he's technically done his bit legally in the sales description.

[Orpster]

Very naughty, and illegal to buy, own or sell 

From the HM treasury guidelines on banknotes and coinage, which applies to anything that is legal tender (which includes sovereigns)

The Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 makes provision for various offences connected with the counterfeiting of coins and banknotes and the possession of instruments that might be used for counterfeiting such items. This Act provides, amongst other things, that it is an offence to (i) make a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin with the intention of passing or tendering it as genuine or (ii) to make a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin without lawful authority or excuse. It is also an offence for a person (i) to pass or tender as genuine a thing knowing or believing it to be a counterfeit of a currency note or protected coin, or (ii) to deliver to another person any thing knowing or believing that thing to be a counterfeit of a currency note or protected coin with the intention that the other person shall pass or tender it as genuine. It is also an offence for a person to deliver, without lawful authority or excuse, to another person any thing which he or she knows or believes to be a counterfeit of a currency note or protected coin. 2 ì Protected coin is defined, by the Act, as any coin that is: (a) customarily used as money in any country or (b) specified in an Order made by the Treasury. The coins that have been specified in an Order by the Treasury are: the Sovereign, Half-Sovereign, Krugerrand, coins denominated as a fraction of krugerrand, Maria Theresa thaler bearing the date 1780 and the euro. Under the Act, the definition of ìCurrency noteî covers notes that have been issued in England and Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or the Republic of Ireland that are customarily used as money in the place where they were issued and are payable on demand. The definition also covers any note that has been issued in a country other than those listed above and which is customarily used as money in that country.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7a34deed915d1fb3cd633a/guidance_coinage_banknotes.pdf

 

 

Edited January 11 by Orpster

[NGMD]

I totally agree with @treetop1280 but add that ‘tar and feathering’ should be included and maybe ducking pond for repeat offenders.

Just don’t buy and sell PM there. E-bay doesn’t care or have any morals. Filth.

I remember @Midasfrog had the Christmas card insult and both the buyer and seller were refunded.

You can’t help people who can’t help themselves as unsuspecting buyers. Only some harsh love will help.

[Gordy]

5 hours ago, Coverte said:

I believe if that were reported to ebay the items maybe removed - either way, very bad practice and why I very rarely even log into ebay anymore.

no way will ebay remove this, he states its fake and in their eyes he's ok, its wrong but there it is, they struggle to remove clearly fraudulent items so this one will stay no matter who complains... my response to the post will be below

[Gordy]

so..... back to the question....

I reckon IMHO anyway is the seller is a chancer who is feeding off the uneducated or the fools who think they are getting a pure off the shelf bargain but some level of culpability must also lie with the buyer as you should always read the listing details, he claims it is a re-strike and a 'good copy' so buyer beware

you never know, one of those buyers may be worse, he/she/other/unicorn may re-list it as genuine and be a panto villian in the hope of doubling down

I also agree with the title being misleading, the restrike bit should be on the title but hey ho, its not, so 'buyer beware' and 'seller is a sh!thouse'

I sell on ebay and buy odds and sods but only limit myself to silver for PM's if the price is good, I've not bought gold on ebay as I dont trust it, simples, and if I get a fake silver coin its a lot less to lose, and doesnt cause me to much worry to open a case with ebay as I'm not worried about a 400 quid sov etc

[dicker]

This sort of scumbag (listing above), typifies the sort of BINlord that lives on the BINlord thread.  Look at his other listings - loads of fantasy coins / counterfeits bought from China and sold between other genuine coins.

Judging by his feedback, I recon he would be easily wound up by a few well aimed emails….

[Gordy]

4 minutes ago, dicker said:

This sort of scumbag (listing above), typifies the sort of BINlord that lives on the BINlord thread.  Look at his other listings - loads of fantasy coins / counterfeits bought from China and sold between other genuine coins.

Judging by his feedback, I recon he would be easily wound up by a few well aimed emails….

mission accepted

[dicker]

He has a large collection of “Change Checker” 50p’s for sale for £750.

I am going to start asking him some questions…Will post replies if he “bites” 

[Gordy]

2 minutes ago, dicker said:

He has a large collection of “Change Checker” 50p’s for sale for £750.

I am going to start asking him some questions…Will post replies if he “bites” 

post the questions, we can then duplicate, that will piss him off and i'll ask him his fav sandwich filling too at some point

[dicker]

The collection doesn’t contain a Kew 50p but no harm asking!