Quarter Sovereign (Proof) Tarnishing?

[GoldDiggerDave]

Just now, Timberwolf said:

How do these toned coins grade? Can conservation do anything to correct it? Is it even worth grading such a coin?

Toning and red spots do have a negative effect on grading, yes conservation can help 

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 minute ago, westminstrel said:

Thanks for sharing this information based on your experience as one who sees so many of these.

That last part you mentioned (about the toning only affecting £2 Sovereigns in specific years) sort of reinforces my theory that batches of blanks may be the issue.

What we call red spots/toning my  not even be copper..........If you think about it 999/9 gold should never red/copper spot but it does so it begs the questions what is it?    I've seen a load of gold proof brits that suffer with heavy red spots it's impossible that copper has caused it as its 999/1000 or 9999/10000 parts gold and the 001/1000 can not all be copper so we are talking microscopic amounts if any it's certainly not detectable.

What I think it is in some case especially in 24ct gold is the same or similar chemical reaction we see in silver as milk spotting, a result of the smelting and annealing process, that reacts orange/red in gold where its milky white in silver.  I can't be 100% sure but its something I've looked into.

Without a doubt @westminstrel there is a difference in the blanks from time to time. 

[westminstrel]

11 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

What we call red spots/toning my  not even be copper..........If you think about it 999/9 gold should never red/copper spot but it does so it begs the questions what is it?    I've seen a load of gold proof brits that suffer with heavy red spots it's impossible that copper has caused it as its 999/1000 or 9999/10000 parts gold and the 001/1000 can not all be copper so we are talking microscopic amounts if any it's certainly not detectable.

What I think it is in some case especially in 24ct gold is the same or similar chemical reaction we see in silver as milk spotting, a result of the smelting and annealing process, that reacts orange/red in gold where its milky white in silver.  I can't be 100% sure but its something I've looked into.

Without a doubt @westminstrel there is a difference in the blanks from time to time. 

Yes indeed you are right. The tiny tiny non-gold metals in a 999.9 gold coin should really make the chances of red copper toning minuscule.

Like the 99.99% Britannias that you mention, I too have seen a 1oz gold American Buffalo get the red copper spot, and it is a 99.99% coin, unlike the 91.67% gold Sovereigns.

[Paulo]

5 hours ago, westminstrel said:

It was my 2017 Proof Sovereign which got a weird sort of tarnishing / bloom. Once again I had got it direct from the Royal Mint and never fiddled with it. I just went back to see it a couple years later, and that was its state.

I have seen numerous 2017 Proof Sovereign online that have the same issue. If people haven’t seen theirs for a few years, they may be in for a surprise. 

I think there was another recent coin which also got the orange tarnish, but I forget which one.

Very interesting thread!

Yep, I have the same problem with one of my 2017 Proof Sovereigns (in safety deposit box, so can not take photo). I had assumed it was copper toning/tarnishing.

It does beg the questioned, If you have a coin which has been graded, and then this happens over time?  

[westminstrel]

4 hours ago, Paulo said:

Very interesting thread!

Yep, I have the same problem with one of my 2017 Proof Sovereigns (in safety deposit box, so can not take photo). I had assumed it was copper toning/tarnishing.

It does beg the questioned, If you have a coin which has been graded, and then this happens over time?  

I’ve seen both older and modern graded gold coins with the copper / red / brown toning and the dulling bloom, but I don’t know if that would’ve happened before or after grading.

The coloured toning is usually obvious but the bloom is only visible at certain angles, and may sellers fail to describe this in their descriptions.

I suppose if such a coin is already graded, it’s up to the owner to send it back to NGC / PCGS for conservation and re-grading at the usual cost?

I’ve never graded for several reasons, one of them being shipping costs from Australia, but I did contemplate sending mine for conservation and grading (I’d have liked to only do conservation if that was an option!)

[westminstrel]

Just bringing up this topic again because I was looking at the Royal Mint’s consignment auction and noticed the tarnishing on numerous Sovereigns and also on 99.99% gold coins.

https://www.royalmint.com/collect/auction/upcoming-auctions/

[Timberwolf]

Update!

I have a few dozen coins in the process of being graded. I've just had the high resolution images back, which is a step that's done before conservation or grading. 

I noted in my opening post that some  of my quarter sovereigns had developed tarnishing/orange spots, I was fully expecting to see these on the high resolution images, though it seems to have disappeared! The only logical explanation is that the orange discolouring developed ON the royal mint proof coin capsule. 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I didn't ever remove the coins from the capsules, so wouldn't have noticed if these marks were actually on the coin vs on the capsule (plus hard to tell on such tiny coins!)

I've attached my 4 quarter sovereigns in case anyone is interested (compare with my image from my opening post) 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Timberwolf

[Timberwolf]

[westminstrel]

In my limited experience, this type of orange tarnish can only be seen at certain angles.

I note that the angle at which you took the original pictures is different from the graded ones. In saying that, I do hope the conservation managed to get rid of it for you. 🙂

[Timberwolf]

5 hours ago, westminstrel said:

In my limited experience, this type of orange tarnish can only be seen at certain angles.

I note that the angle at which you took the original pictures is different from the graded ones. In saying that, I do hope the conservation managed to get rid of it for you. 🙂

The tarnishing on my quarter sovereigns was visible at all angles. I also checked it if was on the surface of the capsule, though it wasn't. I don't open any of my proof capsule's, so wouldn't have known if this developed on the inside after a few months.

Also of note is that the NGC Photovision plus (the imaging service used above) takes the photos before any conservation or grading is done, so this isn't conservation work removing the tarnishes (yet!?).

[Ignorant]

OP after carefully scrutinizing the images you posted, I fear none of them will grade PF70. All of them appear to have some minor blemish or another. I predict all will fetch PF69. Perhaps one even a PF68. I’d be curious to know how it turns out. Bummer, but one could only hope.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Ignorant

[Timberwolf]

On 22/11/2023 at 18:54, Ignorant said:

OP after carefully scrutinizing the images you posted, I fear none of them will grade PF70. All of them appear to have some minor blemish or another. I predict all will fetch PF69. Perhaps one even a PF68. I’d be curious to know how it turns out. Bummer, but one could only hope.

Thankfully, all 4 graded PF70 Ultra Cameo, after conservation. Money very well spent. Needless to say, I'm very happy 

 

 

[Ignorant]

Excellent result. Congratulations. I guess tiny edge imperfections don’t affect grading.

[Timberwolf]

8 minutes ago, Ignorant said:

Excellent result. Congratulations. I guess tiny edge imperfections don’t affect grading.

Thanks! Not sure what magnification the grading is done at, but looking at the returned coins after they've had conservation, it's very hard to spot any imperfection with the naked eye.

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

1 hour ago, Timberwolf said:

Thanks! Not sure what magnification the grading is done at, but looking at the returned coins after they've had conservation, it's very hard to spot any imperfection with the naked eye.

NGC website states that they use 5x magnification. It's actually quite low a magnification, and now they have hi res images like PCGS I doubt if 5x is still the standard. They could probably spot more imperfection with those images than with the loupe.

[Petra]

33 minutes ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

NGC website states that they use 5x magnification. It's actually quite low a magnification, and now they have hi res images like PCGS I doubt if 5x is still the standard. They could probably spot more imperfection with those images than with the loupe.

Whatever NGC magnification is, when they sent pictures of my 1/20 gold Britannia from the Trial of the Pyx prior to slabbing it you could really see the marks on the coin from the ‘trial’, whereas, at home with no magnification you could see nothing and with a glass, still very little.🤔⛄️