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Marsh 2019 sovs MIA?


Simonz

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List of suspected errors/ommissions/additions to Marsh's 'The Sovereign Series' book. 

Please post any suspected errors and I'll add them to this list. Publisher says "Steve Hill would welcome any amendments" for the next edition.

2015 Normal needs clarification.   #343 5th head, not listed in book, but listed in price guide '343 Normal, Jody Clark portrait £350'

2019 Proof missing.   Mintage 9,500 https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/proof/The-Sovereign-2019 

2019 Piedfort missing.   Mintage 1800 https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/proof/The-Piedfort-Sovereign-2019

2020 George III Privy proof mintage not known.  #359 COA says  mintage 7,995 https://www.thelondoncoincompany.com/store/2020-St-George-and-the-Dragon-Gold-Proof-Full-Sovereign-Coin-Box-Coa-p161954525

Should Brilliant Uncirculated coins be listed separately rather than included in 'Normal' mintages?

 

 

Original post below:

Marsh (2021 edition p.158) seems to omit a few 2019 sovs? Seems odd given it's not exactly ancient history?

Proof with no privy mark, mintage 12,270 (https://www.chards.co.uk/2019-gold-sovereign-proof/2959)

Matt BU mintage 25,000 (https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/brilliant-uncirculated/the-sovereign-2019-brilliant-uncirculated)

Piedfort mintage 1800 (https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/proof/The-Piedfort-Sovereign-2019/)

NZ's first sovereign Also found this while researching, I need one! The Indian sovs get a mention so why not this one? (https://hattonsoflondon.com/shop/popular-themes/by-theme/royal/the-2019-new-zealand-first-ever-gold-sovereign/)

Prompted by a 2019 proof listed on Coin Cabinet's next auction. https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots/view/4-8LQ2YU/2019-gold-sovereign-proof-box-coa-agw02355-oz

The more research I did, the more 'unlisted' coins popped up. Apologies if this has been discussed before (I did a site search and both have been listed for sale but no other mentions) hope I'm not missing something obvious?

IMG_3961.jpg

Edited by Simonz
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23 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

I’ve lately been seeing folks like you bring up a bunch of inconsistencies and inaccuracies printed as fact in the Marsh books with no disclaimer, so I’m not surprised.

If it's a common problem how about a pinned thread where people can list their findings, and get feedback. Then notify the publisher and they can review for the next edition? For the greater good?

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35 minutes ago, Simonz said:

If it's a common problem how about a pinned thread where people can list their findings, and get feedback. Then notify the publisher and they can review for the next edition? For the greater good?

That’s actually a really great idea. 🙂

I don’t know about alerting the publisher or anything, but it would definitely be a great group to our members and visitors here.

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10 minutes ago, Simonz said:

Found this on p151 of Marsh which explains why the matt BU coin isn't listed.

IMG_3962.jpg

I don’t know if that is accurate as the RM itself states that the bullion and Brilliant Uncirculated strikes are different.

In any case, for 2019 and 2020, the Brilliant Uncirculated Sovereign was a matte finish unlike the bullion.

As an authority on coinage, Marsh shouldn’t be simply glossing over these nuances because this is precisely the type of information people are searching for.

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23 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

I don’t know if that is accurate as the RM itself states that the bullion and Brilliant Uncirculated strikes are different.

In any case, for 2019 and 2020, the Brilliant Uncirculated Sovereign was a matte finish unlike the bullion.

As an authority on coinage, Marsh shouldn’t be simply glossing over these nuances because this is precisely the type of information people are searching for.

Possibly the Royal Mint do not want to disclose the mintages of modern bullion sovereigns, I'm sure the information of the BU's will be separated at some point.   The BU's IMO are just anther bite of the cherry, this allows them to produce "proof ish" coins later in the year that won't effect the mintage figures of the proof coins that are disclosed at the start of the new year.   

The 2018 BU SOTD George 5th birthday is a far far superior coin than modern proof coins.    It's an unmilled proof in everything but name and one of the last sovereigns minted with what I call real dies.   After this time the RM switched to the horrid laser engraved dies that produced a "digital"  St George and the Dragon and its in very low relief compared to the 2018, and I don't even think any engraving takes place with these dies.

The bullion and brilliant uncirculated are totally different,  the BU are struck exactly the same as a proof sovereign (they my be some kidology to the number of times the coin struck  from the proof coins but thats about it)  they used the Matte dies 2019 and onward to allow the coins to be differentiated from the proof coins.   

Bullion sovereigns are mass produced in another area of the mint, so there is a clear distinction in how they are made and accounted for.   (there could be some anomalies with some of the early SOTD as these were just bullion sovereigns but I'm sure these are all ready listed in Marsh.  

Not got my Marsh to hand but will look at modern mintage figures later. 

 

Screenshot 2023-01-22 at 08.19.36.png

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15 minutes ago, ShineyMagpie said:

@GoldDiggerDave i forget the post no but someone recently shared one of the RM's viedo explaing the difference in the 3 strike types and why they did each and the affects.

I've stuck my own sovereign at the mint🤗     The BU is stuck on the same equipment as the proof sovereigns, the matte finish is created on the die not the blank, they just sandblast the die to make the coin matte......They could be using end of proof dies and blast them for the BU sovereigns.    

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2 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

same equipment as the proof sovereigns

Hmm in the video (not sure of its date) the use separate dies for the proof. Carved to a deeper depth so more relief is transferred. Then some clear tape, and diamond polish to get the matt and shiny effect on the coin

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Just now, ShineyMagpie said:

Hmm in the video (not sure of its date) the use separate dies for the proof. Carved to a deeper depth so more relief is transferred. Then some clear tape, and diamond polish to get the matt and shiny effect on the coin

100% on the same machine………the dies possibly slightly different I can show you a “BU” that’s clearly better than a 2019 proof.  There is a lot of kidology in this area.  

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5 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

The study of goats?

Something like that @ShineyMagpie I’ve got some time this evening I’ll do a little video so you can see the difference………best thing you do in this interest trust your eyes over what it says on the box……I’ve bought proof coins labels as bullion by gold dealers…..good news for me! 

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I like the idea of a pinned thread for Updates that Steve Hill could use. 

Happy to update with pics of errors and die numbers that are not in Marsh.  

Die numbers do need an update in Marsh!

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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12 hours ago, Simonz said:

Marsh (2021 edition p.158) seems to omit a few 2019 sovs? Seems odd given it's not exactly ancient history?

Proof with no privy mark, mintage 12,270 (https://www.chards.co.uk/2019-gold-sovereign-proof/2959)

Matt BU mintage 25,000 (https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/brilliant-uncirculated/the-sovereign-2019-brilliant-uncirculated)

Piedfort mintage 1800 (https://www.royalmint.com/sovereign/proof/The-Piedfort-Sovereign-2019/)

NZ's first sovereign Also found this while researching, I need one! The Indian sovs get a mention so why not this one? (https://hattonsoflondon.com/shop/popular-themes/by-theme/royal/the-2019-new-zealand-first-ever-gold-sovereign/)

Prompted by a 2019 proof listed on Coin Cabinet's next auction. https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots/view/4-8LQ2YU/2019-gold-sovereign-proof-box-coa-agw02355-oz

The more research I did, the more 'unlisted' coins popped up. Apologies if this has been discussed before (I did a site search and both have been listed for sale but no other mentions) hope I'm not missing something obvious?

IMG_3961.jpg

I have not looked at the New Zealand, and don't really intend to, as I believe they are not really sovereigns.

In the future, I think they will generate as much apathy as most of the "world's first" "sovereigns", with 19 sides, a hole in the middle, etc.

😎😎

Chards

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3 hours ago, dicker said:

I like the idea of a pinned thread for Updates that Steve Hill could use. 

Happy to update with pics of errors and die numbers that are not in Marsh.  

Die numbers do need an update in Marsh!

If someone here does have a way to let them know, the usefulness of the thread and our collective knowledge would indeed be amplified. 🙂

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5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I can show you a “BU” that’s clearly better

Please don't think I don't believe you, I wasn't questioning your statement was just saying what was on the video, which less face it is marketing at the end of the day

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24 minutes ago, ShineyMagpie said:

Please don't think I don't believe you, I wasn't questioning your statement was just saying what was on the video, which less face it is marketing at the end of the day

Not a problem the RM marketing machine makes them out to be vastly different coins and made differently.  They’re hardly anything different between some BU and Proof sovereigns, the funny thing is in 2018 when they minted the George’s 5th Birthday “BU” they sent a batch out with COA’s saying proof I’ve still got the letter from the RM asking for the COA back🤣……..and even more funny  when these hit the NGC and PCGS they graded them PF70UC as proof coins instead of MS70 bullion even grading companies at first thought they were proof coins, that’s  why in 2019 they went Matte to stop the confusion. 

It’s all good fun mate.  
 

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7 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

funny thing is in 2018 when they minted the George’s 5th Birthday “BU” they sent a batch out with COA’s saying proof I’ve still got the letter from the RM asking for the COA back🤣……..and even more funny  when these hit the NGC and PCGS they graded them PF70UC as proof coins instead of MS70 bullion even grading companies at first thought they were proof coins

Oh I thought this only happened for the 2017 BU Plain Edge SotD.

I wasn’t aware it happened for the 2018 George’s 5th Birthday BU Pain Edge SotD too.

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1 minute ago, westminstrel said:

Oh I thought this only happened for the 2017 BU Plain Edge SotD.

I wasn’t aware it happened for the 2018 George’s 5th Birthday BU Pain Edge SotD too.

Yes the good old RM......It's like they don't know what they are making......I'll up load the letter if I can find it!  

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3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have not looked at the New Zealand, and don't really intend to, as I believe they are not really sovereigns.

In the future, I think they will generate as much apathy as most of the "world's first" "sovereigns", with 19 sides, a hole in the middle, etc.

😎😎

Howzabout a 'World's first' piedfort sovereign with 'Blackpool' running all the way through!

4753569311_2986938060_b.jpg

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On 23/01/2023 at 02:28, dicker said:

I like the idea of a pinned thread for Updates that Steve Hill could use. 

Happy to update with pics of errors and die numbers that are not in Marsh.  

Die numbers do need an update in Marsh!

If you post your die number updates @dicker, or PM to me? I will update the summary of errors/additions on the first post of this thread to keep everything in one place. I will contact Publisher to see if it's of interest to them. I have PM'd admin to see if we can make this a pinned thread.

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Response from Token Publishing;

"Thank you for your e-mail and interest in The Gold Sovereign. 

Whilst a new edition is a couple of years off we will be doing another and are sure that Steve Hill would welcome any amendments. If you could please send a link to the forum, it would be most welcome.

We look forward to hearing from you."

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9 hours ago, Simonz said:

Response from Token Publishing;

"Thank you for your e-mail and interest in The Gold Sovereign. 

Whilst a new edition is a couple of years off we will be doing another and are sure that Steve Hill would welcome any amendments. If you could please send a link to the forum, it would be most welcome.

We look forward to hearing from you."

This is awesome @Simonz. 👏🏽 

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