mix of gold coins to stack?

[minionsofgold]

Hello guys,

Just starting to stack on gold sov for the past few weeks,

been always stacking on gold bars few years ago but starting to look into gold coins. 

Sovereigns seems to have a fairly low entry point where you can get half and quarters (but adding the high premiums here) 

I have done some research on gold coins - the liquid ones (keeping its value) + good for stacking are:

 

Sovereigns 

Britannia 

American Eagle and Buffalo 

Canadian Maple 

Kruggerand 

Kangaroo 

Pre '33 US 

Francs 

 

How liquid are those that aren't UK minted? And the premiums on them

Anymore added to the list here that I can dig around and look into please? 

Currently looking for something that is easy to sell later on and of course for long term investing too

 

My profile right now is just 20/80 on bars and Sov (started off with quarters > half> Full) 

the exceptions on Ducat is for my own collection 😄

Edited January 21, 2023 by minionsofgold
typo on a line

[Spyder]

I would add the Mark and Panda

[Seasider]

Don't go too big on the non-UK stuff because you will find that is subject to CGT if you make substantial gains.

You might think about Queens Beasts (not sure about the Tudor Beasts series) but there should be plenty to keep you interested with sovereigns and Britannias.

[ZRPMs]

Sovereigns as a staple. Although the quarter sovereign seems to be gaining more interest, Myself, I stick to the full or half. Some of the larger sovereigns are nice to own as well. The Britannia's are a good coin also. Basically as @Seasider says look for coins that are CGT free. I think you'll find these will be quite liquid in the future should you need to sell.

[minionsofgold]

15 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I would add the Mark and Panda

Are the Marks german (prussian) ones? 

5 minutes ago, Seasider said:

Don't go too big on the non-UK stuff because you will find that is subject to CGT if you make substantial gains.

You might think about Queens Beasts (not sure about the Tudor Beasts series) but there should be plenty to keep you interested with sovereigns and Britannias.

Any vat on non-uk stuff other than the CGT? 

Yes need a date run on the full sov, but still wanting to go to London coin fair to see and pick them up in person. Postage is such a pain. Only worth it when you get them in bulks

 

thank you for the heads up guys @Spyder @Seasider

[Solachesis]

As someone who has dabbled in the more obscure coins, which may have higher premiums to the right buyer, they can be a right bugger to shift. Of course you can treat yourself to non UK coins you enjoy for your collection, but keeping the majority liquid makes life a bit easier, it could take days to sell an egyptian coin to raise funds, but you can get a sovereign gone in minutes if its priced right, so I don't think you can go wrong with sovereigns and Britannias. 

American eagles seem very popular too, the buffalo of course, some perth mint coins, Krugerrands. I don't see many maples honestly. Having most of your stack legal tender mitigates big exposure to CGT too. 

[Seasider]

3 minutes ago, minionsofgold said:

Any vat on non-uk stuff other than the CGT? 

VAT is (to date) only an issue for silver and platinum not gold.

[minionsofgold]

Just now, ZRPMs said:

Sovereigns as a staple. Although the quarter sovereign seems to be gaining more interest, Myself, I stick to the full or half. Some of the larger sovereigns are nice to own as well. The Britannia's are a good coin also. Basically as @Seasider says look for coins that are CGT free. I think you'll find these will be quite liquid in the future should you need to sell.

I was just worrying about putting all eggs in the same basket hence looking to stack on other types or weigh size 

but with the forum I tend to see a trend that Sov is the most "liquid" out of all (doesn't have to worry anything about 1/4, 1/2 or full) they all sold within the day

but non-UK coins seems to be a rarer or not as popular as Sov

 

[Seasider]

4 minutes ago, minionsofgold said:

need a date run on the full sov

That could get expensive depending on the dates you have in mind.  Try not to go back before 1837.

[minionsofgold]

3 minutes ago, Seasider said:

VAT is (to date) only an issue for silver and platinum not gold.

is there any custom duties when you buy from let say perth mint itself? 

if so the costing seems a bit high with non-UK items (unless you source them in the UK)

[minionsofgold]

7 minutes ago, Solachesis said:

As someone who has dabbled in the more obscure coins, which may have higher premiums to the right buyer, they can be a right bugger to shift. Of course you can treat yourself to non UK coins you enjoy for your collection, but keeping the majority liquid makes life a bit easier, it could take days to sell an egyptian coin to raise funds, but you can get a sovereign gone in minutes if its priced right, so I don't think you can go wrong with sovereigns and Britannias. 

American eagles seem very popular too, the buffalo of course, some perth mint coins, Krugerrands. I don't see many maples honestly. Having most of your stack legal tender mitigates big exposure to CGT too. 

thank you for your wise advice @Solachesis

I will stick with Sov and Brit for now and start to look into American Eagles and other sorts 

trying to make my investment easier and liquid with gold 

[ZRPMs]

I'm sure @LawrenceChard would be able to give you some great tips for stacking. He does tend to be a fountain of information. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by ZRPMs

[Solachesis]

3 minutes ago, minionsofgold said:

thank you for your wise advice @Solachesis

I will stick with Sov and Brit for now and start to look into American Eagles and other sorts 

trying to make my investment easier and liquid with gold 

I'm in the process of shifting to a majority UK stack, I've lost money on a lot of the foreign coins I've gone through as people didn't really want them, and I reduced them to get them gone. It's all a learning experience! 

[Spyder]

Best advice I can give you is gold is gold and it is always worth it's scrap value, so if you buy for the right price, meaning close to spot,you will never lose much.

[minionsofgold]

13 minutes ago, Seasider said:

That could get expensive depending on the dates you have in mind.  Try not to go back before 1837.

interested in the Elizabeth II heads for now but not the proof ones 

mainly the Gillicks head, Machin ones tends to have a higher price on I believe? 

modern coins only specific years rather than a proper full date run

so nothing before 1837 thankfully 😂

 

7 minutes ago, Solachesis said:

I'm in the process of shifting to a majority UK stack, I've lost money on a lot of the foreign coins I've gone through as people didn't really want them, and I reduced them to get them gone. It's all a learning experience! 

any luck in other countries pawnshop or local dealers? thanks @Solachesis I hope things get better for you in 2023! 

I guess some foreign coins are for some people's collection one's cherry

 

12 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Best advice I can give you is gold is gold and it is always worth it's scrap value, so if you buy for the right price, meaning close to spot,you will never lose much.

that's the bottomline of gold i believe  it rises over the long run 

[Anteater]

1 hour ago, minionsofgold said:

 

I have done some research on gold coins - the liquid ones (keeping its value) + good for stacking are:

 

Sovereigns 

Britannia 

American Eagle and Buffalo 

Canadian Maple 

Kruggerand 

Kangaroo 

Pre '33 US 

Francs 

 

How liquid are those that aren't UK minted? And the premiums on them

 

If you're stacking (not collecting) gold coins for gold value (not numi value) in the UK then I don't really see the argument for buying anything except Brits, Sovs and Krugs (and the fractional versions of them).

Brits and Sovs are both CGT exempt and are highly liquid in the UK. Sovs allow you to buy a smaller amount without paying quite so much premium as on 1/4 Brits (and allow you do go smaller with fractional Sovs). I think the 9999 Brits are likely to be rather more liquid if you end up disposing of them outside of the parts of the world in which Sovs are common, as they're "standard" (for most of the world) weights and also state the gold content and purity on them. Also, again if you might dispose of them in another part of the world, in many places there are tax and market desire advantages to 999+ gold over 22ct. (2013 and after Brits are 9999/~24ct.)

I also particularly like the security features on 2021+ Brits as they might make it easier to convince someone else that they're genuine, particularly in a face to face deal. (But I haven't tested that theory.)

Krugs also seem to be fairly liquid in the UK and are widely known around the world. I mostly include them because you can likely buy them for a lower premium compared to Brits or Sovs. But they don't have CGT exemption and are 22ct.

Most of the other options are worse in terms of premium and/or liquidity in the UK (at least, if you want to retain some of the premium). I'm waiting for someone to argue with me but unless you particularly expect to dispose of the coins somewhere else in particular (eg North America which prefers Eagles, Buffalos and Maples) I don't really see the point in pursuing them. (Though if it's definitely genuine and the price is low enough then I guess any gold is a good buy...)

Edited January 21, 2023 by Anteater

[ZRPMs]

6 minutes ago, Solachesis said:

I've lost money on a lot of the foreign coins

 

6 minutes ago, Solachesis said:

It's all a learning experience! 

Its all to easy to get tempted  with a really nice designed coin for different parts of the world. I'm guilty of it myself. Wise words from @Solachesis stay with UK legal tender coins. To be fair there is so much variety with the humble Sovereign. Bullion, Proof, Special editions. Years, Monarch's, the list goes on. Some costing little more than spot others costing a small terraced house. 

My collection is mostly built up from bullion but in purchasing on a regular basis with local dealers I've also managed to pick up so gem's. Most recent was a collection for little more than spot. In it were 2 boxes with COA 2017 proof sovereigns. I gave £370 each. I think they are at £1100ish.

[Solachesis]

3 minutes ago, minionsofgold said:

any luck in other countries pawnshop or local dealers? thanks @Solachesis I hope things get better for you in 2023! 

I guess some foreign coins are for some people's collection one's cherry

I don't have an LCS actually, so all my selling is on here, and I've moved a few coins on Ebay, but it's always a cheek clenching experience.

certain coins will probably do well when selling to those in other countries. Turkish gold is quite low premium due to production costs and lower wages, you can get it rather close to spot, but it would sell for more here. In contrast, they will eat up American and British gold, I could likely get more for a Britannia there than I can here, because their economy is not doing great and foreign goods are very expensive.

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, minionsofgold said:

Hello guys,

Just starting to stack on gold sov for the past few weeks,

been always stacking on gold bars few years ago but starting to look into gold coins. 

Sovereigns seems to have a fairly low entry point where you can get half and quarters (but adding the high premiums here) 

I have done some research on gold coins - the liquid ones (keeping its value) + good for stacking are:

 

Sovereigns 

Britannia 

American Eagle and Buffalo 

Canadian Maple 

Kruggerand 

Kangaroo 

Pre '33 US 

Francs 

 

How liquid are those that aren't UK minted? And the premiums on them

Anymore added to the list here that I can dig around and look into please? 

Currently looking for something that is easy to sell later on and of course for long term investing too

 

My profile right now is just 20/80 on bars and Sov (started off with quarters > half> Full) 

the exceptions on Ducat is for my own collection 😄

 

2 hours ago, ZRPMs said:

I'm sure @LawrenceChard would be able to give you some great tips for stacking. He does tend to be a fountain of information. 

This is worth reading

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

At least😎, I hope it is!

 

[Seasider]

2 hours ago, minionsofgold said:

is there any custom duties when you buy from let say perth mint itself? 

if so the costing seems a bit high with non-UK items (unless you source them in the UK)

I have never bought direct from the Perth Mint so I do not know but there are plenty of horror stories on here of being charged VAT on imported gold coins and having to claim it back (and getting an admin charge from the courier company).  It is quite easy to pick up Aussie coins from UK dealers.  New ones from Chards or Atkinsons (they are in Birmingham so could be convenient for you).  Old ones you could look at HGM as you never know what will walk through their door.

One other foreign coin to look out for are the Mexican Libertads (although they look a lot better in proof than in bullion).

[minionsofgold]

On 21/01/2023 at 15:43, Anteater said:

If you're stacking (not collecting) gold coins for gold value (not numi value) in the UK then I don't really see the argument for buying anything except Brits, Sovs and Krugs (and the fractional versions of them).

Brits and Sovs are both CGT exempt and are highly liquid in the UK. Sovs allow you to buy a smaller amount without paying quite so much premium as on 1/4 Brits (and allow you do go smaller with fractional Sovs). I think the 9999 Brits are likely to be rather more liquid if you end up disposing of them outside of the parts of the world in which Sovs are common, as they're "standard" (for most of the world) weights and also state the gold content and purity on them. Also, again if you might dispose of them in another part of the world, in many places there are tax and market desire advantages to 999+ gold over 22ct. (2013 and after Brits are 9999/~24ct.)

I also particularly like the security features on 2021+ Brits as they might make it easier to convince someone else that they're genuine, particularly in a face to face deal. (But I haven't tested that theory.)

Krugs also seem to be fairly liquid in the UK and are widely known around the world. I mostly include them because you can likely buy them for a lower premium compared to Brits or Sovs. But they don't have CGT exemption and are 22ct.

Most of the other options are worse in terms of premium and/or liquidity in the UK (at least, if you want to retain some of the premium). I'm waiting for someone to argue with me but unless you particularly expect to dispose of the coins somewhere else in particular (eg North America which prefers Eagles, Buffalos and Maples) I don't really see the point in pursuing them. (Though if it's definitely genuine and the price is low enough then I guess any gold is a good buy...)

@Anteater very informative thank you for that

I guess there's would be a "local" preferences on coins like you mentioned above NA prefers Eagles, Buffalos etc.

On 21/01/2023 at 15:44, ZRPMs said:

 

Its all to easy to get tempted  with a really nice designed coin for different parts of the world. I'm guilty of it myself. Wise words from @Solachesis stay with UK legal tender coins. To be fair there is so much variety with the humble Sovereign. Bullion, Proof, Special editions. Years, Monarch's, the list goes on. Some costing little more than spot others costing a small terraced house. 

My collection is mostly built up from bullion but in purchasing on a regular basis with local dealers I've also managed to pick up so gem's. Most recent was a collection for little more than spot. In it were 2 boxes with COA 2017 proof sovereigns. I gave £370 each. I think they are at £1100ish.

indeed. I get tempted by old gold coins like Canadian 1 penny or the German 5 marks etc

sometimes i would think maybe get a silver coin in these rather than getting a gold coin just for the design of the coins. 

I went into several LCS the other day but no one seems to be too friendly around my area (i only got them through the internet before), just asking for some full sovereigns and particular date and no bulk prices being offer. not sure what should be the right approach to going into LCS. That was a steal with your recent collection! I am nowhere near proof Sovs as they are out of my budget for a Full. But in certain years they only issue proofs unfortunately

On 21/01/2023 at 15:47, Solachesis said:

I don't have an LCS actually, so all my selling is on here, and I've moved a few coins on Ebay, but it's always a cheek clenching experience.

certain coins will probably do well when selling to those in other countries. Turkish gold is quite low premium due to production costs and lower wages, you can get it rather close to spot, but it would sell for more here. In contrast, they will eat up American and British gold, I could likely get more for a Britannia there than I can here, because their economy is not doing great and foreign goods are very expensive.

I think it is very difficult to buy gold coins through eBay at least not for myself because I am not sure what people I am dealing with and I am a rookie on gold. Not dare to touch ebay coins yet and yet eBay tends to have a higher prices than we have with larger renowned coin shops like the Chards/ ATS/ HGM

Fair point and the other risks are to get a reliable coin dealer in the locals. theres always doggy ones that might come across with

On 21/01/2023 at 17:27, LawrenceChard said:

 

This is worth reading

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

At least😎, I hope it is!

 

It is definitely! thank you so much for writing the articles and it is super helpful. Digesting them on the dayoff! 

On 21/01/2023 at 18:05, Seasider said:

I have never bought direct from the Perth Mint so I do not know but there are plenty of horror stories on here of being charged VAT on imported gold coins and having to claim it back (and getting an admin charge from the courier company).  It is quite easy to pick up Aussie coins from UK dealers.  New ones from Chards or Atkinsons (they are in Birmingham so could be convenient for you).  Old ones you could look at HGM as you never know what will walk through their door.

One other foreign coin to look out for are the Mexican Libertads (although they look a lot better in proof than in bullion).

I have bought once from the Perth Mint but that wasn't a gold coin, it's like a 2oz collectible coin or something similar that was released 2/3 years ago. I wasn't aware of the custom duties and VAT and I pay a lot on top.. well at least it's not a fake coin or got stolen but definitely a lesson on such 

Sounds like the proof is a level up of bullion. Do people grade their proof coins or it doesn't really matter for grading it? I mean does it add any value to item itself after grading since it's a proof coin... ?

 

 

thank you guys for contributing in this post, really something there to learn and very wise words! 

[Seasider]

18 hours ago, minionsofgold said:

Sounds like the proof is a level up of bullion.

I was talking more about eye appeal.  It can depend on the coin but the prime example for me is the 2012 sovereign.  Bullion and proof are the same design but they are worlds apart when it comes to eye appeal.  The design just blends into the background on the bullion while it really pops on the proof.  Libertads are a bit like that.

Proofs tend to cost a lot more than bullion and you are probably right to steer clear of them.   There is a thread on here somewhere of someone who collected proof sovereigns and then could not sell them for much more than bullion prices.  And before anyone says anything I think he did try selling on here.

 

18 hours ago, minionsofgold said:

Do people grade their proof coins or it doesn't really matter for grading it? I mean does it add any value to item itself after grading since it's a proof coin... ?

Personally I think grading is more for collectors than stackers so I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

Grading costs a fair bit so economically it makes more sense to grade a proof sovereign than say a silver sixpence.  But you can grade almost anything for any reason.  Adding value is not the only reason - you may just want to know it is genuine if it is something that gets faked a lot (eg Indian Head $5 or old Chinese silver "dollars").

If you get a 70 grade for a modern proof that should add value.  If you get 69 that is probably a wash and if you get below 69 then you have wasted your money.  Of course if you have a 1937 sovereign in 62 63 or 64 you have a very valuable coin indeed especially if it gets an Ultra Cameo or Deep Cameo designation. 

[ShineyMagpie]

On 21/01/2023 at 15:12, minionsofgold said:

but non-UK coins seems to be a rarer or not as popular as Sov

I think this is more of what @Solachesis was talking about. With the increased price in gold (and hopefully steady progression) more people are starting to think CGT wise. Especially if they do lower the threshold I becomes even more prevalent. Meaning that UK coins (Sovereign/ Britannia) become a "easier" sell than foreign coins. That's not to say you can't have any, nor you will not be able to shift them. But if you thinking over time the CGT free coins have to play a part, especially as you have said you have gold bars already and they will use up that allowance.