My 1887 Quintuple Jubilee Sovereign

[Spyder]

Hello, This is my Jubilee Head Quintuple Sovereign. I'm after a little expert information.

1.What grade would some of your expert put on this coin?

2.Would you get this coin graded if it was yours?

I have noticed that there are 3 marks near the edge of the coin which I never noticed before. Can not understand how it happened, as I have always had it in padded box.

Thanks in advance

Edited December 30, 2022 by Spyder

[Spyder]

Wanted to add more photos, but got message stating that I have exceeded my limit

[James32]

1 hour ago, Spyder said:

Wanted to add more photos, but got message stating that I have exceeded my limit

You need to be a paid member to avail of unlimited access. 

@Silverlocks any opinions on grade?

[Silverlocks]

2 hours ago, Spyder said:

Wanted to add more photos, but got message stating that I have exceeded my limit

Get a silver membership.  A decent photo of the reverse would be a big help.

49 minutes ago, James32 said:

You need to be a paid member to avail of unlimited access. 

@Silverlocks any opinions on grade?

It's got some visible scratches, but not much wear on the details and it looks like it's a proof coin*.  Probably aboutUNC, low 60s in Sheldon terms.  According to Marsh, 1887 proof £5 sovs had a total mintage of 797 and rates S.  Marsh thinks this is quite valuable in decent condition, although for a proof coin, the condition is maybe enough to detract significantly from its value.  Maybe some sort of QA reject as the planchet has red spots (Victoria looks like she's got conjunctivitis).

I think this is probably worth getting a pro to look at it.  Also, check the reverse for a Sydney mint mark ('S' in the ground just above the date).  Unlikely here in Blighty but the Sydney ones are very rare according to Marsh.

* Looks like a proof - the fields don't have the normal satin finish, and it looks like the lettering and effigy have the frosted cameo effect you get on proofs. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Silverlocks

[dicker]

I think people would need to see the Rev and Obv to guesstimate a grade.  The edge knocks will impact the grade.

I don’t grade coins at all, so I am biased but you may want to consider the following.

- Are you grading to establish that the coin is genuine? (this is a *very* heavily counterfeited coin?

- Do you simply want to know the grade?

- Are you grading to sell (linked to the first point)

I am in a phone on bumpy public transport and can’t see the pic super clearly, but I would guess it is Bullion but “Proof Like” as PCGS would put it - I have seen similar.  
 

Best

Dicker

[Spyder]

OK, have just signed up for years membership to help out the forum.

I'm not sure if it is a proof, but it definitely has a good lust to it being over 135 years old.

Hope these extra three photo helps

[GoldDiggerDave]

To grade a coin it’s only possible when you can see both sides. 

[Spyder]

I'm 100% sure that it is geniune 

[GoldDiggerDave]

Fields are nice for the coin the heavy edge knocks are a detractor.  These  are always an “alarm bell” coin as @dicker pointed out there’s loads of fakes of these around.

For me I’d stick this in for grading but would be crossing my fingers if they would  grade it due to the edge knocks.

If this is a coin you have inherited then you have nothing to lose getting the coin graded at either PCGS or the NGC 

 

[Spyder]

Thanks for all the  replies. I bought this coin over 10 years ago and was offered over £2000 about 9 years ago by a central London coin shop dealer. I think if I was planing on selling I might have it graded, but the edge knocks put me off now. I don't remember seeing them before. Can not understand how it could have happened as it has not been touched against other coins. 

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, Spyder said:

Hello, This is my Jubilee Head Quintuple Sovereign. I'm after a little expert information.

1.What grade would some of your expert put on this coin?

2.Would you get this coin graded if it was yours?

I have noticed that there are 3 marks near the edge of the coin which I never noticed before. Can not understand how it happened, as I have always had it in padded box.

Thanks in advance

Your first concern should be whether it is genuine, as @dicker mentioned in passing.

It is London Mint, not Sydney, and if you are not sure whether it is proof, then it will not be.

This is probably the most faked of all UK coins, followed closely by the 1887 double sovereign.

There are many obvious fakes, and also some difficult ones made in the 1970s, probably in Beirut.

😎

[James32]

4 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Thanks for all the  replies. I bought this coin over 10 years ago and was offered over £2000 about 9 years ago by a central London coin shop dealer. I think if I was planing on selling I might have it graded, but the edge knocks put me off now. I don't remember seeing them before. Can not understand how it could have happened as it has not been touched against other coins. 

Anyone else got access..kids etc?

[Spyder]

3 minutes ago, James32 said:

Anyone else got access..kids etc?

No one had access to it. I should have left it alone as now, it is now starting to bug me. One edge mark I could understand, maybe a knock on a table, but three...

[Spyder]

13 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Your first concern should be whether it is genuine, as @dicker mentioned in passing.

It is London Mint, not Sydney, and if you are not sure whether it is proof, then it will not be.

This is probably the most faked of all UK coins, followed closely by the 1887 double sovereign.

There are many obvious fakes, and also some difficult ones made in the 1970s, probably in Beirut.

😎

I think being offered over £2000, nine years ago by a central London dealer would pass the fake test

[dicker]

There is another possibility with respect to the edge knocks…

Some unscrupulous people fill areas of coins.  In the US it’s called “Coin Doctoring” and covers everything from chemically treating coins, through to disguising marks with dental wax and other fillers.  Often these de-grade over time and the owner only realised years later (or after a coin has been graded)

It could be the case that your coin had been interfered with and the treatment it had received has dissolved or fallen away over time…

https://coinweek.com/opinion/commentary/the-specter-of-coin-doctoring-and-the-survival-of-great-coins-2/

[Spyder]

1 minute ago, dicker said:

There is another possibility with respect to the edge knocks…

Some unscrupulous people fill areas of coins.  In the US it’s called “Coin Doctoring” and covers everything from chemically treating coins, through to disguising marks with dental wax and other fillers.  Often these de-grade over time and the owner only realised years later (or after a coin has been graded)

It could be the case that your coin had been interfered with and the treatment it had received has dissolved or fallen away over time…

https://coinweek.com/opinion/commentary/the-specter-of-coin-doctoring-and-the-survival-of-great-coins-2/

Thanks, that a very interesting theory. Why did the coin dealer not notice that then

[James32]

2 minutes ago, Spyder said:

No one had access to it. I should have left it alone as now, it is now starting to bug me. One edge mark I could understand, maybe a knock on a table, but three...

Assuming you paid substantially less, even in it's current condition ( if geniune,and i mean geniune sovereign rather than geniune gold ) then use it as a trade up coin? Unless its your birth year..in which case, congratulations on both the coin and your incoming Guinness world record 😉 

[James32]

5 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I think being offered over £2000, nine years ago by a central London dealer would pass the fake test

Believe both @LawrenceChard @dicker are referring to it being a genuine sovereign, rather than questionable gold content. 

[LawrenceChard]

21 minutes ago, Spyder said:

I think being offered over £2000, nine years ago by a central London dealer would pass the fake test

It would partly depend who the "central London dealer" was.

😎

[dicker]

18 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Thanks, that a very interesting theory. Why did the coin dealer not notice that then

They apparently get past NGC / PCGS sometimes…..

[LawrenceChard]

54 minutes ago, Spyder said:

Thanks, that a very interesting theory. Why did the coin dealer not notice that then

The dealer may well have noticed edge knocks, but sometimes drawing attention to such things can needlessly antagonise a potential seller.

😎

Edited December 30, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[dicker]

Sadly some dealers (*none who are in this thread so far*) / auction houses sell counterfeit coins (I assume unknowingly).  

There are a few examples of this in previous posts on TSF.  If they are selling them….then it would indicate that they can’t identify counterfeits or don’t apply due diligence when buying them.

It’s worth being super careful especially with the 1887’s

It might be interesting to know where yours originated from?

Best

Dicker

 

 

[Zhorro]

43 minutes ago, Spyder said:

No one had access to it. I should have left it alone as now, it is now starting to bug me. One edge mark I could understand, maybe a knock on a table, but three...

Often when you see an enlarged photograph of a coin, you spot things that you had not noticed before - this is not unusual!

I wonder if in the past someone was testing whether it was gold or gold plate?

[Spyder]

8 minutes ago, dicker said:

Sadly some dealers (*none who are in this thread so far*) / auction houses sell counterfeit coins (I assume unknowingly).  

There are a few examples of this in previous posts on TSF.  If they are selling them….then it would indicate that they can’t identify counterfeits or don’t apply due diligence when buying them.

It’s worth being super careful especially with the 1887’s

It might be interesting to know where yours originated from?

Best

Dicker

 

 

The dealer I originally bought it from has a very good reputation. Sadly retired now.  Good honest and fair priced coin and stamp shops are starting to become a rarity nowadays as more retired due to ill health or age. I use to have the best. Would sell me coins at spot price, sometimes even under.

[James32]

1 minute ago, Zhorro said:

Often when you see an enlarged photograph of a coin, you spot things that you had not noticed before - this is not unusual!

I wonder if in the past someone was testing whether it was gold or gold plate?

Was exactly my thoughts, looks like 3 x file marks.