Colour of proof sovereigns

[RDHC]

I don't have much to go on, and I'm probably either deceiving myself or have even worse eyesight than a recent optician's examination revealed, but, try as I may, my two  2019 proof sovereigns do seem to have lost most of the unattractive pink colour that afflicts modern sovereigns, for the last 22 years at least, as I am informed. They don't have the nice 'old gold' look of the Gillick sovereigns, of which I have one or two, let alone the yellow gold of a recent Britannia, but they appear to be quite acceptable, even allowing for the optical trick that can be performed by tilting the coin so as to achieve a cameo effect. Any one else noticed this or am I simply a lost and deluded soul? My comparison is with two bullion 2020 sovereigns. And if I am not entirely wrong, what could be the cause of the presumably apparent (i.e. not real) improvement when the copper content remains the same as for a bullion sovereign?

[jultorsk]

Paging @LawrenceChard

😁

[sixgun]

Put up some photos - a row sovereigns from different era and the people will have a better idea of what you are saying.

[Britannia47]

The topic of Sovereign colour has been covered many times. I agree that the colour of the 2022 proof sovereigns may appear to be different, but the alloy used is the same as for the 2022 bullion sovereign. When the RM were advertising  this coin, it appeared to have an overly 'pink' cast. In reality it seems quite acceptable in colour, but of course when you compare it with a 'Gillick' there is a marked difference. I hope the comparison photo illustrates that point...

 

 

[RDHC]

2 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

The topic of Sovereign colour has been covered many times. I agree that the colour of the 2022 proof sovereigns may appear to be different, but the alloy used is the same as for the 2022 bullion sovereign. When the RM were advertising  this coin, it appeared to have an overly 'pink' cast. In reality it seems quite acceptable in colour, but of course when you compare it with a 'Gillick' there is a marked difference. I hope the comparison photo illustrates that point...

 

 

Thank you for the photos. They show the cameo effect very well but not the diminished pinkness effect or illusion that intrigues me.. 

3 hours ago, jultorsk said:

Paging @LawrenceChard

😁

And perhaps the famous Semolina Pilchard and his camera.

[Britannia47]

58 minutes ago, RDHC said:

Thank you for the photos. They show the cameo effect very well but not the diminished pinkness effect or illusion that intrigues me.. 

And perhaps the famous Semolina Pilchard and his camera.

I take your point, but I assure you that both coins are the same colour. The cameo effect is due to the infamous 'trick of the light' by allowing the camera/lense to flood the 'mirrored field' with shadow at certain angles. I will send another photo of the 2 Sovs. side by side....

As you can see the Proof actually looks slightly more pink than the Bullion. The shiny relief surface of the bullion is always going to look different from the frosting on the proof relief and therefore will interfere with the colour seen by the eye or camera lens. One of the best gold coins for colour is the 'Buffalo' It has a semi matte finish and reflects red and yellow, whilst absorbing violet and blue in the spectrum. Our copper alloyed sovereigns are so difficult to reflect their true colours, but that's what you get with 'Red' gold. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Britannia47

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, RDHC said:

I don't have much to go on, and I'm probably either deceiving myself or have even worse eyesight than a recent optician's examination revealed, but, try as I may, my two  2019 proof sovereigns do seem to have lost most of the unattractive pink colour that afflicts modern sovereigns, for the last 22 years at least, as I am informed. They don't have the nice 'old gold' look of the Gillick sovereigns, of which I have one or two, let alone the yellow gold of a recent Britannia, but they appear to be quite acceptable, even allowing for the optical trick that can be performed by tilting the coin so as to achieve a cameo effect. Any one else noticed this or am I simply a lost and deluded soul? My comparison is with two bullion 2020 sovereigns. And if I am not entirely wrong, what could be the cause of the presumably apparent (i.e. not real) improvement when the copper content remains the same as for a bullion sovereign?

Proof and bullion sovereigns are going to look different of course.

Lighting also makes a difference.

In photography, proof gold often looks dark brown, while bullion sovereigns look a more natural colour. I have never made a major mental effort to work out why, but I am sure there is someone out there who could provide clear scientific reasons.

Cameras also capture and process images differently, so it can get even more complicated.

Your observations are interesting though!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, RDHC said:

Thank you for the photos. They show the cameo effect very well but not the diminished pinkness effect or illusion that intrigues me.. 

And perhaps the famous Semolina Pilchard and his camera.

My / our comprehensive analysis of gold sovereigns alloy content is well overdue.

Some Gillick sovereigns do have some silver in their alloy, which explains why they are a nicer colour.

For example:

While the gold figure is slightly high at 918 instead of 917 or 916, the silver content at 4 ppt (0.4%) is also slightly high, I would have expected about 3ppt.

A sample 1958 sovereign:

...and the obverse:

I do wish someone at the Royal Mint would look at TSF from time to time!

😎

[RDHC]

4 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

I take your point, but I assure you that both coins are the same colour. The cameo effect is due to the infamous 'trick of the light' by allowing the camera/lense to flood the 'mirrored field' with shadow at certain angles. I will send another photo of the 2 Sovs. side by side....

As you can see the Proof actually looks slightly more pink than the Bullion. The shiny relief surface of the bullion is always going to look different from the frosting on the proof relief and therefore will interfere with the colour seen by the eye or camera lens. One of the best gold coins for colour is the 'Buffalo' It has a semi matte finish and reflects red and yellow, whilst absorbing violet and blue in the spectrum. Our copper alloyed sovereigns are so difficult to reflect their true colours, but that's what you get with 'Red' gold. 

Thank you for your informed and very interesting explanation, which I find convincing, and for your trouble over further photographs. I agree that the very shiny surface of the bullion coin must be a large part of the illusion.

Roger

[RDHC]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

My / our comprehensive analysis of gold sovereigns alloy content is well overdue.

Some Gillick sovereigns do have some silver in their alloy, which explains why they are a nicer colour.

For example:

While the gold figure is slightly high at 918 instead of 917 or 916, the silver content at 4 ppt (0.4%) is also slightly high, I would have expected about 3ppt.

A sample 1958 sovereign:

...and the obverse:

I do wish someone at the Royal Mint would look at TSF from time to time!

😎

Thank you, Lawrence, for both your posts - and for your efforts to make the Mint see sense. Very fine coin, by the way.

Roger

[LawrenceChard]

40 minutes ago, RDHC said:

Thank you, Lawrence, for both your posts - and for your efforts to make the Mint see sense. Very fine coin, by the way.

Roger

Thank you for those kind words, I'll keep trying.

Yes, it is a nice looking sovereign, helped by a good photo.

Take a bow @SemolinaPilchard!

😎