Is silver worth buying with VAT on top?

[AndyDee]

Hi all, I’m new to stacking, and was just wondering what you lot think about buying silver from UK with vat on top?

would it be a wise move? Or is there another way 

[Paul]

Welcome Andy  - nope 

If you have no urge to actually hold the physical metal in your hand

Use the likes of bullionvault - you'll not pay any VAT, have no worry about security, and be buying it in the cheapest form (good-delivery/industrial LBMA bars) but will never hold it 

Don't wish to pay VAT for physical silver you will hold/own  buy from the likes of Silver To Go (Germany), European Mint (Estonia) or at your own risk ! they have very mixed reviews, you've been warned goldsilver.be

All of the above use EU margin rules to buy VAT free, be quick though dont know what will happen when we leave the EU at turn of year 

[Norskgeld]

Some online dealers offer pre owned silver VAT free.

[sixgun]

2 hours ago, AndyDee said:

Hi all, I’m new to stacking, and was just wondering what you lot think about buying silver from UK with vat on top?

would it be a wise move? Or is there another way 

We have for some years been able to dodge VAT by buying silver in certain countries in the EU. If you bought silver from UK mainstream dealers you paid VAT. Because there was this dodge, selling the silver often meant a 20% haircut for those had paid the VAT. Buyers had the VAT free option so there are downwards pressures on price.
We don't know the details of what will happen in 2021 - we assume there will be VAT charged by Customs on all silver imports. David at GoldSilver.be told me he had some sort of method to get round the VAT, i have heard another talk about another option - but we should assume all sources of silver will be VAT'd.
This will mean buyers do not have the VAT free dodge. Logically prices on the Silver Forum will go up. So if sale prices go up, then paying VAT will be compensated. Will dealers give you that VAT in their purchase prices? Not sure - perhaps Lawrence Chard will tell us what he plans. i would say i would want to wait to see how this turns out. Personally i don't intend to pay VAT on silver - but i'm not in the UK, so i can continue to buy VAT free.  i will have to see if i continue to buy bits of silver off the Silver Forum unless it is supplied from inside the EU.

There are options to buy vaulted silver - this is VAT free. i have bought silver through Kinesis - this is vaulted - VAT free and no vaulting fees. Once this gets going 'properly' - and depending on how VAT on silver goes i will 'promoting' Kinesis a lot harder, b/c i see it as a good solution for those interested in buying physical silver.

[AndyDee]

Thank you all for your help and opinions 👍

[HawkHybrid]

39 minutes ago, sixgun said:

We have for some years been able to dodge VAT by buying silver in certain countries in the EU.

why do people keep on saying that it's dodging vat? when it's not.

the silver that you buy from estonia(0% vat), germany(~10% vat, I think) have vat already paid on it.

the courier merely retrieves your silver from the shop for you. you don't need to add a uk rate of vat

to it because you've already paid vat at the estonia/german rate at the point of sale.

it's vat pre-paid upon reaching uk borders. (it's cheaper to settle the required vat at the shop then

upon delivery).

 

HH

[HawkHybrid]

6 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

double post

 

HH

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

All of the above use EU margin rules to buy VAT free, be quick though dont know what will happen when we leave the EU at turn of year 

i expect they will hit border control and VAT will be levied by Customs on the silver.

[MancunianStacker]

Does anyone know if you can fit a monster box in the spare wheel recess? 😉 

[Paul]

15 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i expect they will hit border control and VAT will be levied by Customs on the silver.

ive not bought physical in a while from Europe, maybe six months, so out of the loop on things these days - thanks for letting me know 

[sixgun]

3 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

why do people keep on saying that it's dodging vat? when it's not.

HH

Members go to the trouble of ordering from the various Continental dealers to avoid paying UK 20% VAT - They pay less than 20%. It is dodging VAT. i agree the coins from Germany and Belgium are not VAT free, although the majority of people refer to them as VAT free.

[sixgun]

6 minutes ago, MancunianStacker said:

Does anyone know if you can fit a monster box in the spare wheel recess? 😉 

i presume this is to put some extra weight in the boot for better traction in the winter. If the tubes were removed from a monster box, i expect you could get more than one monster box in the recess. So it would give you a decent amount of weight in the boot and good traction for a quick get away.

[sixgun]

17 minutes ago, Paul said:

ive not bought physical in a while from Europe, maybe six months, so out of the loop on things these days - thanks for letting me know 

i have bought silver from China on a number of occasions. The guys generally don't declare the true value or exactly what it is. They just do that as a matter of course. Only once have i had a package opened. i was charged VAT but it was a lot less than the 20% of value. It was perhaps the proper VAT rate on silver for coins and medallions of numismatic interest to collectors - the 5%. 
Sometimes packages fly under the radar - i think a lot of packages that aren't too heavy will get in. There are just too many to check. Now things might change with Brexit for the better - in as much as they have so much to deal with they let more of the smaller stuff in - or they might check everything. 
In the past i have gone on the plane and coins were not checked - i have had silver bars looked at. The last time a couple of weeks ago every bloody coins was looked at - i nearly missed the plane. God knows why - i think the guy was interested in gold coins.

[MancunianStacker]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i presume this is to put some extra weight in the boot for better traction in the winter. If the tubes were removed from a monster box, i expect you could get more than one monster box in the recess. So it would give you a decent amount of weight in the boot and good traction for a quick get away.

Yup! All about the traction, snow is due! 😊 

[HawkHybrid]

14 hours ago, sixgun said:

Members go to the trouble of ordering from the various Continental dealers to avoid paying UK 20% VAT - They pay less than 20%. It are dodging VAT. i agree the coins from Germany and Belgium are not VAT free, although the majority of people refer to it as VAT free.

 

the vat paid on silver coins bought in germany goes into the german taxes. uk vat have nothing to do with it.

so if a person goes on holiday and buys an item with all the relevant applied local vat then is that considered

dodging vat? people buy from abroad because it's cheaper overall. not necessarily because they want to pay

a lower rate of vat. it's not just silver that's cheaper abroad.

understanding how the vat is currently applied may be an important technical point in determining how it might

be applied after we leave the eu.

 

HH

[TomR92]

The whole issue of making a quick trip to continent to buy some silver at low/no VAT will really all depend if the UK customs put a limit on how much you can return with duty free, I suspect there will be a personal allowance that will make it uneconomical to do runs to and from the continent. Either way bringing silver over personally to sell on will be duty liable I suspect, similar to rules on alcohol and cigarettes when travelling.

Fingers crossed for some kind of agreement this week, if not might have to make the switch to gold  

 

[Pete]

16 hours ago, MancunianStacker said:

Does anyone know if you can fit a monster box in the spare wheel recess? 😉 

Yes but it isn't worth going to jail over as a smuggler.
Just keep it in your boot or back seat to make it look like a picnic hamper.

[Pete]

19 hours ago, AndyDee said:

Hi all, I’m new to stacking, and was just wondering what you lot think about buying silver from UK with vat on top?

would it be a wise move? Or is there another way 

The answer to your question is dead simple -

If you believe that silver spot price will rise by over 20% then yes but to make it worth investing in you would need maybe a further 20% on top.
Unfortunately the VAT you pay is instantly lost and irrecoverable to private individuals.
Some dealers selling secondhand silver make statements that they sell VAT free, but that is an accounting diversion because although they do not charge you VAT, they don't discount by 20% either.
This is the same as buying "duty free" at UK airports where no tax is levied but a litre of spirits with 20% tax bought in Tescos is still cheaper.

It will be interesting to see if GS.be and others find a loophole / work around to UK VAT - under the 'LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" part of the Brexit agreement we hope to sign.

[MrTT]

Geiger edelmetalle & silberling.de are good places to buy pm's. 👍

[Bimetallic]

What @Petesaid. VAT becomes an input cost like any other, which is unfortunate given that precious metals are investments, not consumption. You'll need the silver price to climb enough to clear the VAT handicap, or you'll lose money.

More broadly, you Brits really need to do something about this VAT nonsense. Precious metals are both investments and money-like goods. On either or both grounds, they should be fully exempt from consumption taxes like VAT. That's basic economics, and it's why they are exempt in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Canada, and most US states. You people once built an empire that spanned the globe – it's strange and awkward to see you reduced to such a state of meek obedience, stripped of arms, your governments regulating your access to knives, and paying absurd taxes on silver... That's like paying tax on the pounds in your wallet, or on shares of stock. Instead of constantly scheming and scurrying to evade VAT on your silver, you people should lobby for abolition of VAT on any and all precious metals and investments. I'm surprised that there isn't an industry group already lobbying for this – is the market for PM significantly smaller in Britain than in other countries? Why aren't the dealers meeting with Parliament?

[spoon]

HI I agree with everything you have said apart from one thing......it is a myth that  our government regulates our access to swords, knives, spears and crossbow or bows of any size are all perfectly legal to buy and own in the uk. I know this as I am a collector of medieval weapons. I own many swords and large knives of various sizes that you can purchase without any kind of regulation. Just google ...the knight shop or southern swords and you will see that these items are freely available to purchase and own without a licence or any kind of regulation in the uk. Obviously you can not walk around in a public place with a large sword but on private land you can and it is 100% legal.

[KPW82]

You can buy any gun you want but have to join a shooting club and get approved by them.. I went to a gun shop a couple of years ago and it was a real eye opener! The fella that ran it was trying to sign me and the Mrs up to a couple's sniper rifle shooting weekend in Wales 🤣

[KPW82]

Just now, KPW82 said:

You can buy any gun you want but have to join a shooting club and get approved by them.. I went to a gun shop a couple of years ago and it was a real eye opener! The fella that ran it was trying to sign me and the Mrs up to a couple's sniper rifle shooting weekend in Wales 🤣

I say any but not hand guns or automatic rifles. I was amazed at what you could get though if you joined the gun club for a few months and got a recommendation from them (they basically sort out the licence from the police etc, you sign some forms and buy a gun safe)

[spoon]

6 minutes ago, KPW82 said:

I say any but not hand guns or automatic rifles. I was amazed at what you could get though if you joined the gun club for a few months and got a recommendation from them (they basically sort out the licence from the police etc, you sign some forms and buy a gun safe)

As KP states you can legally own and keep guns at home in the uk....you just need a licence which is easy to get as long as you do not have a criminal record. You are allowed to keep the guns at home if you have a gun cabinet. All of this info is freely available on the internet. 

[KPW82]

Just now, spoon said:

As KP states you can legally own and keep guns at home in the uk....you just need a licence which is easy to get as long as you do not have a criminal record. You are allowed to keep the guns at home if you have a gun cabinet. All of this info is freely available on the internet. 

I knew you could get a shotgun etc but was shocked at some of the stuff you could buy if you were a member of a gun club. To be fair to the guy he did say you have to be a long term member to get some of it, they basically see you at the range over a course of months and decide if you're a psycho or not 🤣 bit off topic for VAT on silver I'll stop now!