Sovereign dates to look out for

[Fenlander1]

Somebody asked me the question so I thought it might make an interesting thread.

" Grandad has a few sovereigns are there any dates I should look out for"

It might be helpful info if some of you knowledgeable chaps know the answer and rough price guide.

[Coverte]

Excellent idea, whilst there is a wealth of knowledge here;

it can take a while to find the type of information to which you refer 👍

[Orpster]

My young head crib sheet

Shields to watch for   1838 R 1839 R2 1841 R3 1844 S 1845 S 1846 S 1848 S 1849 R 1850 R 1858 R 1859 R 1860 S 1865 S 1872M R 1873S S 1874 R4 1878S S 1880M R2 1881M R 1881S R 1882M S 1883M R2 1883S S 1885S S 1886M R3 1886S S 1887M R3 1887S S     G&D to watch for   1871S S 1872M S 1873 S 1873M S 1874 R 1874M S 1876M S 1876S S 1879 R3 1879S S 1880S S 1881S S 1885 S

Edited January 24 by Orpster

[Fenlander1]

3 minutes ago, Orpster said:

My young head crib sheet

Shields to watch for
1838	R
1839	R2
1841	R3
1844	S
1845	S
1846	S
1848	S
1849	R
1850	R
1858	R
1859	R
1860	S
1865	S
1872M	R
1873S	S
1874	R4
1878S	S
1881M	R
1881S	R
1882M	S
1883S	S
1885S	S
1886M	R3
1886S	S
1887M	R3
1887S	S
G&D to watch for
1871S	S
1872M	S
1873	S
1873M	S
1874	R
1874M	S
1876M	S
1876S	S
1879	R3
1879S	S
1880S	S
1881S	S
1885	S

Would they all warrant a small premium?

[Orpster]

37 minutes ago, Fenlander1 said:

Would they all warrant a small premium?

Only in the right condition.

My usual rule of thumb on young heads G&D when I buy is (upto) 5% on common and normal, 8% on scare and 10-15% on rare.  For shields it is (upto) 15% on common and normal, 20% on scarce and 33% on rares.  I would only apply this to gVF or better.  Anything less I would take at its own merit depending how worn it is and the general condition.  Selling the same really

Edited January 24 by Orpster

[modofantasma]

I think @Orpster has the Young Victoria's covered. 

For shields the last on my shopping list are....

1887 58 49 48 41 39 38

haven't seen many of these dates if any on the forum and when you see lots of multiple shields for sale here they tend to be more common dates.

In terms of George V and Ed VII there's not so much dates themselves but certainly some mintmarks like C for Ottawa in Canada are not very high mintage in general. 

1917 London springs to mind but also some of the S M mark coins are not seen as often.

IF I remember rightly there 84 different date and mint marks available for KGV and about a quarter are more tricky

[treetop1280]

50 minutes ago, Orpster said:

My young head crib sheet

Shields to watch for
1838	R
1839	R2
1841	R3
1844	S
1845	S
1846	S
1848	S
1849	R
1850	R
1858	R
1859	R
1860	S
1865	S
1872M	R
1873S	S
1874	R4
1878S	S
1881M	R
1881S	R
1882M	S
1883S	S
1885S	S
1886M	R3
1886S	S
1887M	R3
1887S	S
G&D to watch for
1871S	S
1872M	S
1873	S
1873M	S
1874	R
1874M	S
1876M	S
1876S	S
1879	R3
1879S	S
1880S	S
1881S	S
1885	S

What do the letters mean,   , s , R3  , and R mean ???? , no R2 D2 , then ????

and what’s a shield??? Thanks 

[Petra]

12 minutes ago, treetop1280 said:

What do the letters mean,   , s , R3  , and R mean ???? , no R2 D2 , then ????

and what’s a shield??? Thanks 

If you are looking at buying full and half sovereigns you may want to buy a copy of ‘The Gold Sovereign’ by Michael Marsh. There are other books but this one (now revised) is an excellent source of information. A shield sovereign is a Victoria one that has the alternative to the George and Dragon on and are usually sold at a premium.😮

[Orpster]

20 minutes ago, treetop1280 said:

What do the letters mean,   , s , R3  , and R mean ???? , no R2 D2 , then ????

and what’s a shield??? Thanks 

S = Scarce
R = Rare
R2 = Very Rare
R3 = Extremely Rare
R4 = 11-20 known examples

And it goes on to R7, it is the rarity rating introduced by Michael Marsh in the book Petra mentions above

[sovereignsteve]

35 minutes ago, modofantasma said:

I think @Orpster has the Young Victoria's covered.

A couple of prominent omissions in the Melbourne series:

1880M and 1883M  both R2

@Orpster

[Orpster]

5 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

A couple of prominent omissions in the Melbourne series:

1880M and 1883M  both R2

@Orpster

I don't have them myself yet bud so they are on a wanted list, forgot they were not on the 'worth looking out for' list

[Foster88]

7 hours ago, modofantasma said:

I think @Orpster has the Young Victoria's covered. 

For shields the last on my shopping list are....

1887 58 49 48 41 39 38

haven't seen many of these dates if any on the forum and when you see lots of multiple shields for sale here they tend to be more common dates.

In terms of George V and Ed VII there's not so much dates themselves but certainly some mintmarks like C for Ottawa in Canada are not very high mintage in general. 

1917 London springs to mind but also some of the S M mark coins are not seen as often.

IF I remember rightly there 84 different date and mint marks available for KGV and about a quarter are more tricky

There are many ‘sleeping’ rarities in the George V sovereigns and the next few years will be very interesting.

As an example, the 1924 Perth Mint comes up for sale far less than the 1924 Melbourne sovereign. But many think the Melbourne is the rarer of the two.

This is of course just one example.

[ZRPMs]

Its even a little more complicated than just certain years or mint's. As there are variations with in the year. Take the 1887 sovereign. There are 30 variations in The Gold Sovereign Series book Revised by Steve Hill. As has already been mentioned. The starting place for the would be sovereign collector I would have thought is a good reference book. It'll give a good foundation to start collecting and help out when looking through a collection of coins.

[SidS]

I always thought 1847 was a date I rarely see! Clearly not.

[Sovhead]

2 hours ago, ZRPMs said:

Its even a little more complicated than just certain years or mint's. As there are variations with in the year. Take the 1887 sovereign. There are 30 variations in The Gold Sovereign Series book Revised by Steve Hill. As has already been mentioned. The starting place for the would be sovereign collector I would have thought is a good reference book. It'll give a good foundation to start collecting and help out when looking through a collection of coins.

Yes, the 1887S has 3 different variations I can’t find how many of each there are.

[Sovhead]

👆🏻Anyone know?

[ZRPMs]

35 minutes ago, Sovhead said:

👆🏻Anyone know?

TYPE IB (DIE NUMBER) SHIELD SOVEREIGNS OF YOUNG HEAD QUEEN VICTORIA

58D

1887

Milled edge proof. No die number (WR331)

Very few

R6

 

TYPE IC SHIELD REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

68,

1887

Normal (Mintage figures are combined with type IIB of the same date)

1,916,424

R3

 

TYPE ID SHIELD REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

83,

1887

Normal

1,000,000

S

 

TYPE IIA ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA

93A

1887

Milled edge proof. W.W. "buried", short tail (WR332)

Very few

R6

 

TYPE IIB ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

109,

1887

W.W. clear, short tail (Mintage figures include Type IC Shield type sovereigns)

1,916,424

C

TYPE IIC ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

124,

1887

Short tail (Mintage figures include Type ID shield type sovereigns.)

1,000,000

N

TYPE IIIA JUBILEE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA

125,	1887	First legend, hooked J with J. Higher than E.B. (DISH.L1)	c.7,881	R5
125A		First legend, hooked J with B. Higher than J.E. (DISH.L.2)	c.7,881	R5
125B		First legend, hooked J, spread initials in straight line (DISH L.3)	c.7,881	R5
125C		First legend, hooked J, closer initials in straight line (DISH L.4)	c.7,881	R5
125D		First legend, with imperfect J (DISH L.7)	1,079,756	C
125E		Proof. Second legend, G: closer to crown (WR333)	797	S
125F		Pattern. 14 pearls in necklace	Very few	R6
125G		Pattern, 14 pearls in necklace. P of B.P. an inverted triangle	Not known	R6

TYPE IIIB JUBILEE SOVEREGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

131,	1887	First legend, hooked J, letters in straight line with raised stops (DISH. M1)	42,727	R5
131A		First legend, hooked J, space between J.E. and B. (DISH. M2)	42,727	R5
131B		First legend, hooked J, E. higher than J. and B. (DISH. M3)	42,727	R5
131C		First legend, hooked J, stops lower than letters (DISH. M4)	42,727	R5
131D		First legend, imperfect J (DISH. M7)	c.598,184	S
131E		Second legend, imperfect J, G closer to crown (DISH. M8	170,908	R
131F		Pattern in silver with 14-pearl necklace	Unique?	R7
131G		Proof	Very few	R7

TYPE IIIC JUBILEE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

138,	1887	First legend, hooked J, with low E. and high B. (DISH. S1)	c.62,000	R3
138A		First legend, hooked J, with stops lower than letters (DISH. S2)	c.62,000	R3
138B		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. low on truncation with E. lowest (DISH. S3)	c.62,000	R4
138C		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. at bottom of junction of truncation with field (DISH. S4)	c.62,000	R4
138D		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. higher up on truncation (DISH. S5)	c.62,000	R4
138E		Specimen finish (a polished die version of 138)	Very few	R5
138F		Proof from the true proof dies	Very few	R6
138G		Proof, plain edge	Very few	R7

 

 

Edited January 25 by ZRPMs

[Sovhead]

All 3 1887 Sydney  minted sovs should possibly be added to list 👍🏻

[Sovhead]

6 minutes ago, ZRPMs said:

TYPE IB (DIE NUMBER) SHIELD SOVEREIGNS OF YOUNG HEAD QUEEN VICTORIA

58D

1887

Milled edge proof. No die number (WR331)

Very few

R6

 

TYPE IC SHIELD REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

68,

1887

Normal (Mintage figures are combined with type IIB of the same date)

1,916,424

R3

 

TYPE IC SHIELD REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

83,

1887

Normal

1,000,000

S

 

TYPE IIA ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA

93A

1887

Milled edge proof. W.W. "buried", short tail (WR332)

Very few

R6

 

TYPE IIB ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

109,

1887

W.W. clear, short tail (Mintage figures include Type IC Shield type sovereigns)

1,916,424

C

TYPE IIC ST GEORGE REVERSE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

124,

1887

Short tail (Mintage figures include Type ID shield type sovereigns.)

1,000,000

N

TYPE IIIA JUBILEE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA

125,	1887	First legend, hooked J with J. Higher than E.B. (DISH.L1)	c.7,881	R5
125A		First legend, hooked J with B. Higher than J.E. (DISH.L.2)	c.7,881	R5
125B		First legend, hooked J, spread initials in straight line (DISH L.3)	c.7,881	R5
125C		First legend, hooked J, closer initials in straight line (DISH L.4)	c.7,881	R5
125D		First legend, with imperfect J (DISH L.7)	1,079,756	C
125E		Proof. Second legend, G: closer to crown (WR333)	797	S
125F		Pattern. 14 pearls in necklace	Very few	R6
125G		Pattern, 14 pearls in necklace. P of B.P. an inverted triangle	Not known	R6

TYPE IIIB JUBILEE SOVEREGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (MELBOURNE, M)

131,	1887	First legend, hooked J, letters in straight line with raised stops (DISH. M1)	42,727	R5
131A		First legend, hooked J, space between J.E. and B. (DISH. M2)	42,727	R5
131B		First legend, hooked J, E. higher than J. and B. (DISH. M3)	42,727	R5
131C		First legend, hooked J, stops lower than letters (DISH. M4)	42,727	R5
131D		First legend, imperfect J (DISH. M7)	c.598,184	S
131E		Second legend, imperfect J, G closer to crown (DISH. M8	170,908	R
131F		Pattern in silver with 14-pearl necklace	Unique?	R7
131G		Proof	Very few	R7

TYPE IIIC JUBILEE SOVEREIGNS OF QUEEN VICTORIA (SYDNEY, S)

138,	1887	First legend, hooked J, with low E. and high B. (DISH. S1)	c.62,000	R3
138A		First legend, hooked J, with stops lower than letters (DISH. S2)	c.62,000	R3
138B		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. low on truncation with E. lowest (DISH. S3)	c.62,000	R4
138C		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. at bottom of junction of truncation with field (DISH. S4)	c.62,000	R4
138D		First legend, hooked J, J.E.B. higher up on truncation (DISH. S5)	c.62,000	R4
138E		Specimen finish (a polished die version of 138)	Very few	R5
138F		Proof from the true proof dies	Very few	R6
138G		Proof, plain edge	Very few	R7

 

 

Is 124 there suggesting the young head G&D and the shield share a mintage of 1m?

Am I reading that right?

[Orpster]

6 hours ago, SidS said:

I always thought 1847 was a date I rarely see! Clearly not.

Quite a common date, see then quite a lot. 

Its 48/49 that don't come up a lot, then also the 58/59

1 minute ago, Sovhead said:

Is 124 there suggesting the young head G&D and the shield share a mintage of 1m?

Am I reading that right?

Yes the mintages are shared, for young heads that's always the case for the branch mints

[ZRPMs]

1 minute ago, Sovhead said:

Is 124 there suggesting the young head G&D and the shield share a mintage of 1m?

Am I reading that right?

The columns are 

Marsh Number

Date

Type/ Variety

Mintage

Rating

 

 

 

[Sovhead]

1 minute ago, Orpster said:

Quite a common date, see then quite a lot. 

Its 48/49 that don't come up a lot, then also the 58/59

Yes the mintages are shared, for young heads that's always the case for the branch mints

So what about the jubilee head 1887s? BBP and a few other have the wrong mintages 

[ZRPMs]

14 minutes ago, Sovhead said:

Is 124 there suggesting the young head G&D and the shield share a mintage of 1m?

Am I reading that right?

Yes that's right

[Sovhead]

4 minutes ago, ZRPMs said:

Yes that's right

This doesn’t add up BBP have all 3 different designs at 2,002,000 but your link from above has both sharing 1m and goldsovereigns.co.uk has all 3 at roughly 1m each 🤣🤣🤣

Edited January 25 by Sovhead

[ZRPMs]

17 minutes ago, Sovhead said:

This doesn’t add up BBP have all 3 different designs at 2,002,000 but your link from above has both sharing 1m and goldsovereigns.co.uk has all 3 at roughly 1m each 🤣🤣🤣

The figures in my post are taken straight from The Gold Sovereign book circa 2021. There is also a note in the book that reads " We know that the Sydney branch mint often struck sovereigns for a particular year and then continued the same date well into the next year and also their records failed to indicate which type they were, therefore mintage figures in general must be accepted as the calendar year not the date on the coin." It would seem any mintage figure must be taken with a pinch of salt. Believe which you will. I had trouble finding them out when I started. That why I bought the book as a reference guide rather than search the internet as I kept finding different quantities for each year. The book also gives more info on the variations for all the years and mints. 

 It's a great reference book and Ideal for most questions you may have about the humble sovereign.