Ahoy there...

[Kitalon]

I can't admit to owning a gram of gold or silver but I intend to change that once the price is right and I know what I'm doing.

I wouldn't say that I'm a stacker or collector although I do have a handful of unique looking 50p and £2 coins that I've held onto from change. I've always been interested in coins and notes so this seems like the right place to be.

Someone down the pub told me that sovereigns are the way to go, so here I am to find out more and possibly start a new collection/hobby. Any pointers greatly received about how best to proceed.

I don't know much about the investment value but I have an ambition to own reals, doubloons and pieces of eight one day. I'm guessing they might be very rare collectors items but it's something from an era that really interests me.

[daca]

Welcome aboard and enjoy the ride!

[codenamedtango]

Welcome to TSF!

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

Welcome aboard!

What gold or silver to buy is complex

Sovereigns are arguably the best buy because they are low premium, liquid (easy to sell), legal tender and widely recognised globally - there are more than a billion British gold sovereign coins spread across the world from the USA to China

There are numismatic and historically important sovs (collectibles) but numismatics are a separate category from regular bullion sovs. The value of bullion sovs depends on the spot price of gold and may fluctuate to the penny in real time at gold dealers. The value of collectibles is not only dependent on spot price

Being legal tender makes sovereigns CGT (Capital Gains Tax) free in the UK. Our government are evil clowns and keep reducing the CGT limit. It used to be £12,300, it's currently £6,000 and next tax year it will be £3,000. It might be £0 soon. You can buy and sell an unlimited amount of sovereigns without generating any taxable events, meaning you don't have to make any declarations to HMRC

There are other legal tender gold coins in the UK including Britannias, Queen's Beasts, Tudor Beasts, etc. If it has a face value (£1, £25, £100) it is legal tender and CGT-free

Sovs are in the sweet spot that make them optimal for gold stackers and gold investors. The main competition at similar premium would be 1oz Britannias. There is a lot going for Britannias with superb security features (those minted in 2021 and later). The closest gold weight equivalent to a sov is the 1/4 oz Britannia. These are also very popular and while not as liquid as sovs the 1/4 oz are a lot more liquid than 1oz coins. The deciding factor 1/4oz Britannia vs Bullion Sovereign is the premium.

If the price of gold goes up the premiums on gold will evaporate relative to the intrinsic value of the gold. If you intend to buy and hold for a period of several years you want the most liquid, tax efficient, widely recognised and lowest premium coin available. That is generally the sovereign

There are beautiful and historical sovereigns which are available at lowish premiums due to high mintage figures. In many years (1817-2000) sovereigns have mintage figures in the millions, even 10,000,000+, while in other years there are only thousands (like 1819 with only 10 known examples remaining) or low hundreds of thousands like modern bullion sovs. If you find one that is rare, old and beautiful (in perfect condition), then it's worth a fortune

Sovereign Mintages - Gold Sovereign & Half Sovereign mintage figures | BullionByPost

A sweet spot for collectors/investors are arguably 'Shields', which are sovs produced between 1838-1887 during the reign of Queen Victoria (there are a few others as well). These coins can be very beautiful, look like gold (yellow) and are historically interesting. Shields enjoy the same investment benefits of modern bullion sovs discussed above. They carry a premium over bullion sovs but it's not a huge premium:

Buy Gold Sovereigns Online - Victoria Young Head Shield (chards.co.uk)

Chards in general have great guides, many are written by Lawrence or other family members

Sovereign Guide | Chards

I know a little about sovs but I'm still a noob compared to most collectors on the forum. There are members with incredible knowledge along with experience of buying and selling sovs

I haven't even mentioned silver 😂. The TL:DR on silver is not to buy it if you have to pay 20% VAT. The 20% VAT is a large cost for nothing of value in return.

The secret to silver is to buy a premium membership (silver or above) on TSF and then browse the latest sales listings. The price of secondary silver on TSF is significantly lower than any bullion dealer and is a lot lower still than places like eBay, Amazon, gift shops. If you want to buy silver or gold (dealers are more competitive on gold, sometimes better) then get the TSF membership. The money you save on purchases will more than pay for the membership. On the flip side if you want to sell you can get much better prices on TSF for silver than from a dealer. A dealer will offer you spot or close to it. On TSF you will get spot + 20% on silver. You will also get better resale value on TSF for gold compared to a dealer

Once you have a few sensible investments under your belt then you can buy shipwreck gold, graded coins or whatever suits your budget. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by HonestMoneyGoldSilver

[AaaGee]

Welcome. Your mate down the pub was right 😄

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

18 minutes ago, AaaGee said:

Welcome. Your mate down the pub was right 😄

Why didn't I think of that?

[James32]

Welcome aboard 

[Gruff]

Welcome to the TSF. There are plenty of resources to learn from and a lot of friendly people that will happily share their knowledge.
I hope you enjoy your time here and that it helps you greatly

[Kitalon]

Thankee all for the very warm welcome, it is most heartening and encouraing. 🙂
I think this confirms my mate down the pub was definitely on to something. It will be good to pick your brains about how a complete beginnger might go about starting to invest in gold sovereigns for the long-term.

Since my first investigations in to sovereigns I've taken a more active interest in gold exchange rates and can see that as high as it is now (aprox 1600) it might be more preferable for gold to go down (to 1500) before I start to invest.

15 hours ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

If the price of gold goes up the premiums on gold will evaporate relative to the intrinsic value of the gold

That is very interesting, so does this mean that when the price of gold goes down the premiums go up?

I do like the look of beautiful Britannias, but am trying not to get side-tracked by shiny things as I develop some kind of strategy. I'm looking to make a long-term investment of 20-30 years (something to potentially suppliement a retirement income) and I think that sovereigns could make a good nest egg given the way gold 'appears' to be going. But I don't really know where to begin, do I buy old or new? Do I go for 'best value' to amass more quickly? At this stage I have little numismatic knowledge so probably don't want to jump into high premium soverigns just yet until I know more. What about lower than 'best value' is it even worth starting there? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts, and if you know of any good threads I should read please let me know.

[AaaGee]

If you are itching to buy right now, go for anything 2022-2023. Cant realy go wrong with that. Avoid best value altogether. 

If you get membership on here, its worth its weight in gold as you see the for sale listings pop up straight away. Non members get to see them a few days later when all the good stuff is gone. Silver membership is cheapest i think (thats what i have).

Happy stacking 🙂

Edited November 27, 2023 by AaaGee

[trp]

Welcome to TSF!  

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

1 hour ago, Kitalon said:

Since my first investigations in to sovereigns I've taken a more active interest in gold exchange rates and can see that as high as it is now (aprox 1600) it might be more preferable for gold to go down (to 1500) before I start to invest.

That is very interesting, so does this mean that when the price of gold goes down the premiums go up?

I do like the look of beautiful Britannias, but am trying not to get side-tracked by shiny things as I develop some kind of strategy. I'm looking to make a long-term investment of 20-30 years (something to potentially suppliement a retirement income) and I think that sovereigns could make a good nest egg given the way gold 'appears' to be going. But I don't really know where to begin, do I buy old or new? Do I go for 'best value' to amass more quickly? At this stage I have little numismatic knowledge so probably don't want to jump into high premium soverigns just yet until I know more. What about lower than 'best value' is it even worth starting there? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts, and if you know of any good threads I should read please let me know.

I don't have a crystal ball or the perfect answers but:

1) It's not certain gold will ever hit £1500 again. If it does it may be in the traditionally slower retail months of August-October 2024. If we have major events between now and then like more geopolitical tensions, economic crises, banking crises, BRICS currencies, then it's more likely gold will go up than down. IMHO gold will be at or above this price until at least after the 3 huge gold buying events - Diwali (India), Christmas and Chinese New Year - have passed in February 2024

2) Very astute observation, did you become an expert overnight? Yes, sometimes that is how it is - the price of gold goes down and the premium goes up to keep the gold coin at the same price. It's a bit like what happens with petrol but over a slightly longer timescale. When oil drops by 5% the price you pay at the pump doesn't immediately drop 5%, the prices stay sticky on the way down. If oil goes up 5% then more often than not the upwards price change filters into petrol price a lot faster than the downwards price

3) Britannias are awesome. Gold is an investment but you should also enjoy what you do and buy what you love. I like the 2021 and later Britannias due to their designs and security features. The difference in premiums between 1/4oz and a bullion sov isn't that big. Most of the larger collectors probably have both Britannias and sovereigns with a weighting towards sovereigns, although there are others who exclusively or majority collect Britannias. The bullion sov is the slightly better investment though if you're looking longer term

4) As for "best value", my recommendation is to see what you are buying before you pay for it. If you see a generic listing and a notice that the coin you receive may not be the one in the picture, well, you are taking a slight risk. You might get a perfect coin or you might get a munter. Some people on the forum will avoid "best value" listings for this reason, they want to see what they are buying and don't want to take the risk of getting a munter 😂

I stress again there are other members who could answer your questions better than me. Perhaps if @James32 is finished tearing strips off the Royal Mint he can answer your question of what to buy first. @AaaGee has given a good answer. I might go for a 2022 Platinum Jubilee QEII and/or the latest KCIII ones. As a general rule the first and last coins of a monarch attract a slightly higher premium. Nobody has a crystal ball but it's possible that 20 years from now these 2022/23 sovereigns may be a lucrative investment in terms of both gold content and numismatic value. 

[marshbag]

Hello and welcome!

[Agaumac]

Hello and welcome to TSF. Great advice from the contributors above and all I’ll add is, for me, it’s a fun investment that represents a great store of value but can get quite addictive when the shiny stuff starts coming through the post. Happy stacking.

[Kitalon]

On 27/11/2023 at 12:10, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

they want to see what they are buying and don't want to take the risk of getting a munter 😂

I saw a sovereign for the first time at a local coin and stamp collectors in Hungerford a few weeks ago. I didn't go with the intent of looking at sovereigns, I was generally more interested in 50p and £2 coins as I've been collecting the nice ones I've found in my change for the last year or so. It was that which piqued my interest and awareness that coins in circulation could sometimes be worth more than their face value so I held on to them. It was then I suddently remembered my conversation at the pub and asked if he had any sovereigns. The gentleman presented me with a tray of what must've been at least a couple of hundred gold sovereigns going back to the 1800s. He said that his price was £406 per soverign and that he'd pick me out some nice ones, something along the line of kings and queens with different heads and even throw in a nice presentation case. I did not know if this was a good deal or not so I didn't accept at the time, but it certainly got me thinking.

I am assuming that these kinds of sovereigns would be what's referred to as 'best value' but I'm not really sure what that means. Obviously each coin has it's intrinisic value in gold and you pay the higher premium for best condition. When it comes to selling would best value coins be more likely to be priced under spot if they've been circulated and are looking a bit more tatty? I would prefer go in asking for particular year's editions if only I knew what to ask for, which leads me to my other question. Can you recommend any good books on the subject of sovergns for the complete beginner?

 

On 27/11/2023 at 12:10, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

IMHO gold will be at or above this price until at least after the 3 huge gold buying events - Diwali (India), Christmas and Chinese New Year - have passed in February 2024

Thank you. This is excellent information and much as I've been suspecting I will set my strategy accordingly and keep watching the markets before I make a move. I don't need to get too distracted by shiny things before Christmas anyway.

 

On 27/11/2023 at 10:43, AaaGee said:

If you are itching to buy right now, go for anything 2022-2023. Cant realy go wrong with that.

Thanks, I'll take that one to the bank. 😉👍

[Petra]

Welcome to the forum. Get yourself a minimum of silver membership so you can see all the bargains on here before they go.

sovereigns are great, however don’t be shy about buying half sovereigns, 1/10th Britannia etc. and other small gold coins. Most premiums on smaller bits can be absorbed when selling. Good luck on your journey 😮👍

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

6 hours ago, Kitalon said:

I saw a sovereign for the first time at a local coin and stamp collectors in Hungerford a few weeks ago. I didn't go with the intent of looking at sovereigns, I was generally more interested in 50p and £2 coins as I've been collecting the nice ones I've found in my change for the last year or so. It was that which piqued my interest and awareness that coins in circulation could sometimes be worth more than their face value so I held on to them. It was then I suddently remembered my conversation at the pub and asked if he had any sovereigns. The gentleman presented me with a tray of what must've been at least a couple of hundred gold sovereigns going back to the 1800s. He said that his price was £406 per soverign and that he'd pick me out some nice ones, something along the line of kings and queens with different heads and even throw in a nice presentation case. I did not know if this was a good deal or not so I didn't accept at the time, but it certainly got me thinking.

I am assuming that these kinds of sovereigns would be what's referred to as 'best value' but I'm not really sure what that means. Obviously each coin has it's intrinisic value in gold and you pay the higher premium for best condition. When it comes to selling would best value coins be more likely to be priced under spot if they've been circulated and are looking a bit more tatty? I would prefer go in asking for particular year's editions if only I knew what to ask for, which leads me to my other question. Can you recommend any good books on the subject of sovergns for the complete beginner?

 

Thank you. This is excellent information and much as I've been suspecting I will set my strategy accordingly and keep watching the markets before I make a move. I don't need to get too distracted by shiny things before Christmas anyway.

 

Thanks, I'll take that one to the bank. 😉👍

I'll get back to you later on that. I'm hoping one of the sov experts will chime in and add their 2 cents

[ZRPMs]

This is a good book on sovereigns 

[James32]

5 minutes ago, ZRPMs said:

This is a good book on sovereigns 

The film was better 😆 

[ZRPMs]

1 minute ago, James32 said:

The film was better 😆 

I never recommend the film. It's not The Rock you know.

[monkey]

Welcome @Kitalon to TSF. Lots of solid advice already mentioned above!

I may add (if its not already been mentioned) be disciplined with a buying budget or you may get gold fever and end up locking too much of your buying power in gold. You wouldn't want to be a forced seller to settle an unexpected bill. Look into setting up a dedicated account for metals buying only.

Other then that if you aim to buy often on here look at a membership. Sovereigns turn over fast here and you will only see them once sold with a free membership.

Hope this place becomes a good tool for your sovereign buying adventures!

[Kitalon]

10 hours ago, monkey said:

be disciplined with a buying budget

Good point! Yes I wouldn't want to find myself being gold rich but strapped for cash when I most need it. I've already earmarked a certain amount for buying when the price of gold comes down to something more reasonable. Until then I'll keep saving and look to make my first purchases sometime early next year (or sooner if gold unexpectedly crashes), it looks like it's far too high to begin to buy right now.

On 29/11/2023 at 18:33, ZRPMs said:

This is a good book on sovereigns 

I've just received a copy from my library (they even bought it in for me). Fascinating stuff! Not exactly what I hoped for in a 'beginners guide' but fully comprehensive and interesting none the less. Is there a numismatics book for dummies anyone can recommend?

[ZRPMs]

2 hours ago, Kitalon said:

I've just received a copy from my library (they even bought it in for me). Fascinating stuff! Not exactly what I hoped for in a 'beginners guide' but fully comprehensive and interesting none the less. Is there a numismatics book for dummies anyone can recommend?

Not sure about basic book for beginners but The Gold Sovereign series really is a good reference book. The more you get in to sovereigns the more you learn. When I started I was just after any sovereign or gold coin to be fair. Then I thought it would be good to get short date runs, from there, the different Monarchs. Once you have a few different Monarchs you find out that there are different designs both on the obverse and the reverse. Which alerts you to the variations and mint marks. before you know it your collecting each date and mint mark whilst looking at the different variation and trying to source some of the rarer coins. Wearing cotton cloves not touching your proof coins. Then justifying paying 4X the spot price for that super rare coin, to yourself of course. If the other half knew, it'd be WWIII.

Anyway. good luck with the collecting. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. And not only that, but over the years you'll build a nice nest egg. I've been at it a bit now and as long as I stay with in my rules for buying and collection. I never regret a purchase. Even some of the pricier coins. Set yourself goals and limits.

[ChrisSilver]

Hello and welcome to The Silver Forum  

[Bigmarc]

On 29/11/2023 at 11:58, Kitalon said:

saw a sovereign for the first time at a local coin and stamp collectors in Hungerford a few weeks ago

This is probably the best way to buy in my opinion. If you have this on your doorstep then I would say it was the safest option. And if he takes cash then even better.