Pre-decimal silver (?)

[FourNinesFine]

OK, I've fallen down something of a rabbit hole here... and I'm trying to learn more about pre-decimal British silver.

I have done a good trawl of previous forum posts and tried to get my head aorund it - in full appreciation that I'm covering ground that will have (and has) been covered before. But I am still stuggling with some of the basics.

For now, I'm just looking to understand which coins had actual silver content (of any meaningful amount). Of those, what was the percentage. And if that silver content changed for different date runs of a particular coin.

I don't know what the protocol is for tagging people directly, but I know these guys have all contributed their expertise previously, so hope it's OK.

@arphethean

@Bigmarc

@SidS

 

The end-game is to pick up some of this to have a bulk stash of (whatever we call Junk / constitutional) Bristish silver with a reasonable silver %. So not looking for collector's items or to have a 'complete' run etc. But if the prices for such are the same as Bullion, I'll knock the idea on the head.

Ideally, I want to get to a place such as:

"Your best bet is to stick to 'x' coin between these dates, which has x% silver content"

[FWIW, I've become quite smitten with specifically the '1877 Empress British India Rupee' - but that's a different story for another time.]

Please point me at any existing resources if you know them. Happy to do some further leg-work.

Thanks in advance.

 

FNF.

Edited April 1, 2023 by FourNinesFine

[Bigmarc]

For sale on the forum. 

 The price separation reflects the content of silver. 

 

[SidS]

Modern British silver coins issued:

1816-1919 (plus a few from 1920) are 92.5% sterling silver.

1920-1946 are 50% silver.

The cheapest (but not very compact) way to buy British pre-decimal silver is to purchase halfcrowns and florins issued from 1920-1946. The earlier dates will be pretty worn, the war years dates of the 1940s can be pretty close to AU times. Being only 50% though they take up a lot of room.

If you want sterlings then George V 1911-1919 half crowns are the way to go. Possibly also Edward VII florins and Victoria Jubilee head crowns and shillings - anything dated 1887 is affordable.

[FourNinesFine]

1 hour ago, SidS said:

Modern British silver coins issued:

1816-1919 (plus a few from 1920) are 92.5% sterling silver.

1920-1946 are 50% silver.

The cheapest (but not very compact) way to buy British pre-decimal silver is to purchase halfcrowns and florins issued from 1920-1946. The earlier dates will be pretty worn, the war years dates of the 1940s can be pretty close to AU times. Being only 50% though they take up a lot of room.

If you want sterlings then George V 1911-1919 half crowns are the way to go. Possibly also Edward VII florins and Victoria Jubilee head crowns and shillings - anything dated 1887 is affordable.

Thank you, that is super helpful!

[sellerstacker]

@SidS is spot on. It is the cheapest way to quickly stack-up on silver. You will generally find it at a few percent over spot. More importantly VAT is also not involved. Good luck with your stacking.

[FourNinesFine]

25 minutes ago, sellerstacker said:

@SidS is spot on. It is the cheapest way to quickly stack-up on silver. You will generally find it at a few percent over spot. More importantly VAT is also not involved. Good luck with your stacking.

Thanks bud, appreciate it.

[FourNinesFine]

Thanks for the responses.  Just squaring the circle... I've done some calculations and I'd welcome some input.

Based on some of the coins suggested in SidS response (which assumes none of these would be especially collectible), I believe the following is true based on a nominal spot price of Spot = £19.53:

 

Half Crown: King George V (1910–1919): 92.5% Ag
Weight = 14.14 g      

Weight of Ag content = 13.08 g  or  42.06% ozt

Inherent = £8.21

Purchase price (assuming 5% over spot) = £8.60 +/- 

 

Florin: (1849–1919) 92.5% Ag
Weight = 11.31 g  

Ag:  10.46 g  or  33.63% ozt

Inherent: = £6.57

Purchase price (assuming 5% over spot) = £6.90 +/-

 

Florin: (1920–1946) 50% Ag
Weight = 11.31 g

Ag:  5.65 g   or  18.17% ozt

Inherent: = £3.55

Purchase price (assuming 5% over spot) = £3.73 +/-

 

Do I have my sums correct?

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by FourNinesFine

[Epictetus]

In my experience, Pre 1947 are sold at spot, not over. That’s the main reason I buy them. 

[flyingveepixie]

6 minutes ago, Epictetus said:

In my experience, Pre 1947 are sold at spot, not over. That’s the main reason I buy them. 

Agreed. If you buy junk pre 1947 silver coins you should get it/them at spot. Different scenario if they're in good nick (VF-EF-UNC) obviously.

[swanky]

You should be buying the 50% stuff at ~90% melt value, because no way you get 100% bulk selling to a jeweller etc when they need to melt down to refine.

Pre-1920 trades for a premium, but that premium is fairly consistent so just accept it. I prefer this over pre-1947, needs less space.

Edited April 1, 2023 by swanky

[FourNinesFine]

5 minutes ago, swanky said:

You should be buying the 50% stuff at ~90% melt value, because no way you get 100% bulk selling to a jeweller etc when they need to melt down to refine.

Pre-1920 trades for a premium, but that premium is fairly consistent so just accept it. I prefer this over pre-1947, needs less space.

OK, makes sense. I was just trying to get a handle on what I could expect price-wise. As always, Ebay is a free-for-all so no way does that help.

[swanky]

These are the pre-1920 premiums I bid with (GC = good condition): GC crowns = 50%, GC half-crowns = 10%, everything else = 5%. Just enough to win occasional auction. But this was a 12+ months ago.

Edited April 1, 2023 by swanky

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Epictetus said:

In my experience, Pre 1947 are sold at spot, not over. That’s the main reason I buy them. 

I am finding it harder to do this tho. Couple of years back it was easy.

Edit. Ignore that just had a look at sold listings on eBay and you can still get them at spot.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Bigmarc

[Divmad]

On 01/04/2023 at 19:22, Bigmarc said:

I am finding it harder to do this tho. Couple of years back it was easy.

Edit. Ignore that just had a look at sold listings on eBay and you can still get them at spot.

You can get total dross pre-1947 at spot, yes, but anything else is going for crazy premiums there. Quite different from a year ago.

[Earthmetal]

I drew this to help figure out spot price. It's in grams not ounces as these are very small items.

The first two columns are the official weight of the coins when new, the second two are the weight of pure silver. Both of course assume zero wear, as there can be considerable wear it becomes a small built-in 'premium'.

Also, the excellent website Numista gives you the silver content of almost any coin in the world.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?ct=coin

 

[FourNinesFine]

14 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

I drew this to help figure out spot price. It's in grams not ounces as these are very small items.

The first two columns are the official weight of the coins when new, the second two are the weight of pure silver. Both of course assume zero wear, as there can be considerable wear it becomes a small built-in 'premium'.

 

Awesome!

[FourNinesFine]

So I absolutely should not be paying £4 per coin for mixed date general circulation (0.500) silver threepence?

or £3 per coin for 1920 - 1946 general circulation (0.500) silver sixpence?

 

or do these command an accepted premium?

(And why is the threepence more valuable if it contains less silver by weight?

[SidS]

In my opinion the silver threepence should be avoided at all costs.

They're small and thus can lose a lot of weight with relatively little wear.

They're almost always over priced and other than the odd date they're not rare.

I'll go out on a limb and say they're not actually as popular as sellers try to make out. Apart from Christmas times when people wanted to put them in Xmas puddings, they were not liked by the population. The working classes with rough calloused hands from manual jobs hated them as they were fiddly and bronze coins were easier to handle. When the brass threepence came out in 1937, it didn't take long for it to superceed the silver one.

Sixpences are better but not great value for money.

If you want to bulk buy silver then halfcrowns and florins are the way to go.

[FourNinesFine]

40 minutes ago, SidS said:

In my opinion the silver threepence should be avoided at all costs.

They're small and thus can lose a lot of weight with relatively little wear.

They're almost always over priced and other than the odd date they're not rare.

I'll go out on a limb and say they're not actually as popular as sellers try to make out. Apart from Christmas times when people wanted to put them in Xmas puddings, they were not liked by the population. The working classes with rough calloused hands from manual jobs hated them as they were fiddly and bronze coins were easier to handle. When the brass threepence came out in 1937, it didn't take long for it to superceed the silver one.

Sixpences are better but not great value for money.

If you want to bulk buy silver then halfcrowns and florins are the way to go.

Thanks for that. As always, very helpful and advice I shall heed!

[SidS]

2 minutes ago, FourNinesFine said:

Thanks for that. As always, very helpful and advice I shall heed!

I will also add that if you look at silver lots on eBay, silver threepences will make up the bulk of the listings. The reason for this I surmise is that people don't like buying them either. They're always available. Everyone wants rid of them.

 

[Earthmetal]

15 hours ago, FourNinesFine said:

So I absolutely should not be paying £4 per coin for mixed date general circulation (0.500) silver threepence?

or £3 per coin for 1920 - 1946 general circulation (0.500) silver sixpence?

 

or do these command an accepted premium?

(And why is the threepence more valuable if it contains less silver by weight?

Absolutely not! Unless of course they are excellent grades or rare dates, but then you're a coin collector not a stacker.

I'm afraid I can't agree to avoid them though, as long as you stick to roughly around spot you can't go wrong no matter what the denomination is.
In fact you may find, as I do, that a wider variety is more interesting. I have them all but still only bought by the weight.

[FourNinesFine]

3 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

Absolutely not! Unless of course they are excellent grades or rare dates, but then you're a coin collector not a stacker.

I'm afraid I can't agree to avoid them though, as long as you stick to roughly around spot you can't go wrong no matter what the denomination is.
In fact you may find, as I do, that a wider variety is more interesting. I have them all but still only bought by the weight.

Excellent. I'll keep my eyes open on the forum. From my searches so far, it seems that nobody wants to offer it at spot from a dealer.

And I know there is some bulk on offer at the mo, but as much as I'm happy with worn etc. I don't necessarily want holed as my first batch.

Thanks again.

[Earthmetal]

You can go a few percent over for nice condition, Pre-1920 seem to command at least 10% over unless you're lucky

[Jimbo7136]

Found this site helpful, lots of pictures too.

CoinsGB - "Your Guide To British Coins" Home Page

[Arganto]

Is the ~10% over spot for pre 1920 .925 for worn flats/'just about readable' dates or is there shop I should be going to 🤔