Intrinsic value of bronze & copper coinage.

[Earthmetal]

As per title, what is the intrinsic value of bronze, and/or copper coinage?

I'm talking scrap/non-numismatic/event of coin collecting collapse.

This could be antique, foreign, what are they worth per gram?

If pre-1992 (bronze) British 1p & 2p coins truly are worth more than face value, what is that 'worth'?

Very difficult to find scrap prices, copper have many prices, and bronze is normally not stated. Melting pre-1970 British is legal, as is any non-British.

[Happypanda88]

I personally wouldn't bother stacking copper because it would take up a huge amount of storage space. Copper is not a precious metal either. The price of copper is currently $0.24 per ounce, compared with silver at $24 per ounce, that's a hundred time cheaper than silver. 

As copper is an industrial metal, the instrinic value is based on supply and demand ie. whatever people are willing to pay for it in a time of need.

 

[Petra]

Stick to collecting copper pipes and cables and taking down to the scrap yard, quick easy money🤔😮

[ZRPMs]

I have a friend that stacks copper and brass (not quite bronze I know). When he told me I thought, Ummm, don't think that's a good Idea. However, when he continued to tell me what he does. Actually I thought that quite cool. 

He treats it as a pass time and what he has actually managed to create is quite unique. I don't think everyone would be able to do what he's managed to do due to space inside and out. Also his ability to collect the raw material. He works as a handyman and as such he has been able to collect for free copper and brass. He's been doing it for many years. at first it was a case of just store it until there was a nice pile then dash to the scrap yard cash it in. usually end of November, Christmas cash. When he bought the place he's in now, he decided to do something different. he has a large yard that has a number of outbuildings. He turned one of them into an office. 

What he does is, On his down time he melts it in to ingots of about 2 kgs. At first he just stacked them against the wall. But now. he's part way through his design. He has been polishing the ingots. and trying to create a picture of a welsh dragon. the colours are not quite right as he gets more copper than brass so his dragon is gold in colour and the back ground is copper red. Its looks a bit blocky but the wall and the room is big enough that when you stand back it looks quite impressive. Its nowhere near finished and he has a lot to do but he has a drawing of the design as it will look and its pretty good. Its cost him the price of the forge (which he made himself). Time, but he treats it as a pass time. With his biggest cost being the gas. He did say he wished he'd kept a tally of this but its not some thing he's thought of selling, and the copper and brass is free. He did tell my the approximate weight he needs to complete it from how many ingots he needs but I've forgotten, However, Its tonnes. but at worst case scenario he'll have scrap value. Which I think copper is about £6000 a tonne. I'll ask if I can have a picture for the forum.

Back to the question. I don't think stacking generic copper or bronze coins will build up much intrinsic value. Might be nice as a collection and certain coins will have a numismatic value but this is likely fluctuate. Buying the copper rounds and the bars is a big no no. The cost is usually many times the intrinsic value. 

[Anteater]

The fact that some old coins would cost more to produce (if produced today) than their face value doesn't necessarily mean that there is money to be made by melting them down, refining them and selling the metals to the market at spot. That whole process takes time, equipment, energy, etc.

You might think that at some point people will start to think that these coins are actually worth more than face value due to their metals and start trading them at above face value like we currently do with bullion coins. I don't see this happening any time soon because, for the reasons given by other posters above, I don't expect stacking copper etc to become popular (certainly not on an amount-of-value-stacked basis).

My guess is if you stack old copper coins with below-spot face value you probably won't lose money but it probably isn't a good use of time, money, storage space, etc that could be better used for other things (opportunity costs).

Edited December 22, 2022 by Anteater

[Earthmetal]

This is more of a hypothetical question than a statement of intent. I am curious, and so far no-one has the info, as I could not find this either!
So, as per the original title, copper and bronze coinage DOES have an intrinsic value. The question is, what is it?

Like most people I hardly ever get any 'copper' (bronze) coins, and of those hardly any are pre-1992 anyway.
I think many people have damaged/worn pre-decimal and foreign coins that are, possibly, worth more as scrap.
I'm not bearing in mind numismatic value, as personally, I can see that hobby soon going the way of stamp collecting.

I already have a forge, and collect all/any copper/brass/aluminium/lead that comes my way, which is actually very little, so storage of the small ingots produced will not be a problem. I even save foil & cans as it's no different throwing it in MY bin as it is THE bin, free money...
Plus, you may not be aware, but lead, alluminium, & copper ingots already seem sell for more on Ebay than a scrapyard would pay.
 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Earthmetal

[Petra]

12 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

This is more of a hypothetical question than a statement of intent. I am curious, and so far no-one has the info, as I could not find this either!
So, as per the original title, copper and bronze coinage DOES have an intrinsic value. The question is, what is it?

Like most people I hardly ever get any 'copper' (bronze) coins, and of those hardly any are pre-1992 anyway.
I think many people have damaged/worn pre-decimal and foreign coins that are, possibly, worth more as scrap.
I'm not bearing in mind numismatic value, as personally, I can see that hobby soon going the way of stamp collecting.

I already have a forge, and collect all/any copper/brass/aluminium/lead that comes my way, which is actually very little, so storage of the small ingots produced will not be a problem. I even save foil & cans as it's no different throwing it in MY bin as it is THE bin, free money...
Plus, you may not be aware, but lead, alluminium, & copper ingots already seem sell for more on Ebay than a scrapyard would pay.
 

But you know what’s what at the scrap yard, nice and straightforward 🤔

[LawrenceChard]

19 hours ago, Earthmetal said:

As per title, what is the intrinsic value of bronze, and/or copper coinage?

I'm talking scrap/non-numismatic/event of coin collecting collapse.

This could be antique, foreign, what are they worth per gram?

If pre-1992 (bronze) British 1p & 2p coins truly are worth more than face value, what is that 'worth'?

Very difficult to find scrap prices, copper have many prices, and bronze is normally not stated. Melting pre-1970 British is legal, as is any non-British.

It is very easy to find the intrinsic value of copper.

There is one slight problem, in that some countries price it in US $ per metric tonne, while the USA is still a few centuries behind most modern countries, and prices it in $ per pound.

This Wikipedia page might help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper#Reserves_and_prices

The price of copper has historically been unstable, and its price increased from the 60-year low of US$0.60/lb (US$1.32/kg) in June 1999 to $3.75 per pound ($8.27/kg) in May 2006. It dropped to $2.40/lb ($5.29/kg) in February 2007, then rebounded to $3.50/lb ($7.71/kg) in April 2007.[32][better source needed] In February 2009, weakening global demand and a steep fall in commodity prices since the previous year's highs left copper prices at $1.51/lb ($3.32/kg). Between September 2010 and February 2011, the price of copper rose from £5,000 a metric ton to £6,250 a metric ton.

The LME website https://www.lme.com/en/metals/non-ferrous/lme-copper#Trading+day+summary quotes it at $8326.50 per tonne.

American market price is $3.7715 per pound. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/future/hgz22.

Please note that scrap "I'm talking scrap" prices are not the same as intrinsic prices, as scrap price would need to allow for refining and other costs.

The intrinsic value of bronze is much more difficult to calculate, because it depends on the exact bronze alloys, but you could work these out if you tried.

Scrap bronze prices would probably be lower that scrap copper prices, mainly because of the extra processing costs involved.

😎

[ZRPMs]

58 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

This is more of a hypothetical question than a statement of intent. I am curious, and so far no-one has the info, as I could not find this either!
So, as per the original title, copper and bronze coinage DOES have an intrinsic value. The question is, what is it?

Like most people I hardly ever get any 'copper' (bronze) coins, and of those hardly any are pre-1992 anyway.
I think many people have damaged/worn pre-decimal and foreign coins that are, possibly, worth more as scrap.
I'm not bearing in mind numismatic value, as personally, I can see that hobby soon going the way of stamp collecting.

I already have a forge, and collect all/any copper/brass/aluminium/lead that comes my way, which is actually very little, so storage of the small ingots produced will not be a problem. I even save foil & cans as it's no different throwing it in MY bin as it is THE bin, free money...
Plus, you may not be aware, but lead, alluminium, & copper ingots already seem sell for more on Ebay than a scrapyard would pay.
 

In a nut shell. The intrinsic value of any coin, whilst on paper may be more than its face value. The cost of turning it into a bar of that metal will negate any increase and more than likely push you in to negative territory. Even taking in to account the increased asking price on the likes of eBay ( about 7 or 8 times the scrap value). There are lots for sale, so competition is high then there is the fee's involved with the sale. Lead is worth more when melted in to sea fishing weights.

Best to do what you are doing. Also the coins have different percentage's of metals. You could just put them in the melting pot with your scrap as and when you come across them. But i personally wouldn't be purchasing them to melt.  

A better metal or items to collect would be pewter. Old bashed up tankards, picture frames, vases etc. They contain high levels of tin. Their intrinsic value is quite high and can be picked up quite cheap. 

[Earthmetal]

2 hours ago, ZRPMs said:

In a nut shell. The intrinsic value of any coin, whilst on paper may be more than its face value. The cost of turning it into a bar of that metal will negate any increase and more than likely push you in to negative territory. Even taking in to account the increased asking price on the likes of eBay ( about 7 or 8 times the scrap value). There are lots for sale, so competition is high then there is the fee's involved with the sale. Lead is worth more when melted in to sea fishing weights.

Best to do what you are doing. Also the coins have different percentage's of metals. You could just put them in the melting pot with your scrap as and when you come across them. But i personally wouldn't be purchasing them to melt.  

A better metal or items to collect would be pewter. Old bashed up tankards, picture frames, vases etc. They contain high levels of tin. Their intrinsic value is quite high and can be picked up quite cheap. 

Annoyingly, an antique half-pint tankard recently made just £3 in mint condition... I think I'd have been better off melting it!

[Earthmetal]

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Please note that scrap "I'm talking scrap" prices are not the same as intrinsic prices, as scrap price would need to allow for refining and other costs

Yes, good point. Although I realise that I worded my query poorly. I guess I meant "Value/worth as a lump of metal without numismatic consideration".
For instance, I wonder whether 1961 to 1992 pennys are already in that category?

[Bigmarc]

On 22/12/2022 at 19:08, ZRPMs said:

better metal or items to collect would be pewter. Old bashed up tankards, picture frames, vases etc. They contain high levels of tin. Their intrinsic value is quite high and can be picked up quite cheap.

My last melt. 

[Earthmetal]

37 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

My last melt. 

Love it, what do you do with it?

[ZRPMs]

1 hour ago, Bigmarc said:

My last melt. 

Awsome

[Bigmarc]

49 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

Love it, what do you do with it?

Make bars, stack it and eBay it. 

Each one is worth £10 ish, it's a slow process but I enjoy it. I have a very low budget for my metals addiction so I have many ways I turn my budget into gold. Some work some don't. I worked out a few years a go that a £1 tankard from a car boot is worth a lot more melted. 

I also get a continuous supply of free copper but just weigh that in because unless you know it's pure copper there can be some nasty stuff in it if melted so don't take the risk. 

Last year spot price of tin was really high so probably going to keep making them until we get to those levels again. 

 

[Earthmetal]

4 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

Make bars, stack it and eBay it. 

Each one is worth £10 ish, it's a slow process but I enjoy it. I have a very low budget for my metals addiction so I have many ways I turn my budget into gold. Some work some don't. I worked out a few years a go that a £1 tankard from a car boot is worth a lot more melted. 

I also get a continuous supply of free copper but just weigh that in because unless you know it's pure copper there can be some nasty stuff in it if melted so don't take the risk. 

Last year spot price of tin was really high so probably going to keep making them until we get to those levels again. 

 

Great stuff, I've thought about it but don't know how to judge what to pay for pewter items. Seen a lot at a local auction but didn't bid.
Also I gather 'pewter' has different alloys over the years.

[Bigmarc]

39 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

Great stuff, I've thought about it but don't know how to judge what to pay for pewter items. Seen a lot at a local auction but didn't bid.
Also I gather 'pewter' has different alloys over the years.

Average pint tankard weights 300g, I pick them up at car boots for 2 quid max. I am a eBay reseller so go to carboots quiet regular so I am there anyway. The main alloy everyone worries about is lead. Small amounts are in ornaments, kitchen handles and some food items that are over 100 years old. You can generally tell because the colour is darker. But the majority of food items (tankards, tea pots, jugs) are food safe so not in it. Doesn't matter to much as long as you say in your listing. I sold a fair amount a few months back when spot was higher but am currently holding on. Here is a few recent sold items on eBay so you can get a idea of weight to price ratio. Remember I am paying less than £2 for 300g. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225087732888?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=S_bqcAGySqO&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/225310911076?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=lXPWWyBgR_i&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394265139663?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=TodgIrCtQ4O&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY 

 

Like I said it's a slow going process but buy the end of it I will have a handful of sovereigns for a fraction of the cost.

 

 

 

 

 

[Earthmetal]

Brilliant, really appreciate the information, thank you.

I melted a load of old wheel weights last year using a saucepan and camping stove... both lead & zinc. I had a small amount of tin which I foolishly wasted by chucking it in with the lead.
That led to buying a forge & moulds 😬. Not yet fired it up (waiting for 100% dry weather).
I now have some more lead, plus the previous mentioned lead & zinc to re-melt into a nicer ingot.
Also got a couple of tubs of brass, a small amount of coin bronze, and slowly building a copper collection, mainly from motor wire!
Plus I'm saving everything & anything made from aluminium.

[Bigmarc]

19 minutes ago, Earthmetal said:

Brilliant, really appreciate the information, thank you.

I melted a load of old wheel weights last year using a saucepan and camping stove... both lead & zinc. I had a small amount of tin which I foolishly wasted by chucking it in with the lead.
That led to buying a forge & moulds 😬. Not yet fired it up (waiting for 100% dry weather).
I now have some more lead, plus the previous mentioned lead & zinc to re-melt into a nicer ingot.
Also got a couple of tubs of brass, a small amount of coin bronze, and slowly building a copper collection, mainly from motor wire!
Plus I'm saving everything & anything made from aluminium.

I toyed with the idea of getting one but think I will save it till retirement. The copper I get has some nasty stuff in it for hardening so just weigh it in. I can't think of the top of my head where to geta good source of aluminium from. Suppose it all depends what industry you are in. 

I like the idea of climbing the metal ladder to gold and it's great to learn new skills.

 

 

[Earthmetal]

Put it this way, the aluminium tray our Christmas bird came in has gone in the stash along with todays foil... all free!

[Silverlocks]

On 21/12/2022 at 22:17, Earthmetal said:

As per title, what is the intrinsic value of bronze, and/or copper coinage?

I'm talking scrap/non-numismatic/event of coin collecting collapse.

This could be antique, foreign, what are they worth per gram?

If pre-1992 (bronze) British 1p & 2p coins truly are worth more than face value, what is that 'worth'?

Very difficult to find scrap prices, copper have many prices, and bronze is normally not stated. Melting pre-1970 British is legal, as is any non-British.

Copper is quite bad for stacking as its spot was about £8/kg last time I looked but copper ingots or bars tend to sit around £20-30/kg.  Unless you're buying shipping containers of it, your premiums are going to kill any resale value it might have.  Most copper coinage doesn't have so much copper in it, these days, either - try picking up a modern 1p coin with a magnet.

For quite a long time, most copper coinage actually cost more to mint than its face value, and eventually the copper was more than the face value of the coin, which led to people actually melting the coinage down to recover the copper.  For this reason, melting copper coinage down was rather frowned upon.  These days the coinage is no longer copper anyway.

Copper is maybe worth scrapping if you (a) have somewhere you can set up a furnace and (b) don't mind scrounging around for it, but I think the ratio of payoff to faff doesn't look all that favourable.  Unless you were handling it in pretty large volumes it's hard to see it turning a decent profit.  Maybe you could do it as a sort of side hustle.

Really, with anything but investment gold, you're also going to get clobbered for VAT here in Blighty, which makes it hard to stack efficiently if you buy through a source related to spot price.  Some things like old sterling silverware can be bought at prices divorced from spot, but then you've got the problem of realising spot price with it.  While refining silver isn't all that hard (watch sreetips's YT channel to see more), it's not practical in your average two up two down due to the toxic fumes produced by the nitric acid, and the fact you need a licence from the Home Office to buy it in the first place.  Selling it as scrap to a refiner isn't going to get you anywhere near spot.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Silverlocks

[Earthmetal]

On 21/12/2022 at 22:17, Earthmetal said:

As per title, what is the intrinsic value of bronze, and/or copper coinage?
If pre-1992 (bronze) British 1p & 2p coins truly are worth more than face value, what is that 'worth'?

 

5 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

Most copper coinage doesn't have so much copper in it, these days, either - try picking up a modern 1p coin with a magnet.
These days the coinage is no longer copper anyway.

If we're talking British 'copper' coins they've been bronze since 1860, copper prior to that.
They're just steel after 1992. Even the 5p & 10p have been steel since 2015.
Just further evidence of our currency now being truly fiat, they're just tokens.