1870 Victoria Young Head Shield Sovereign Die Number 120 with a Few Interesting Features - Photos

[LawrenceChard]

1870 Victoria Young Head Shield Sovereign Die Number 120 with a Few Interesting Features - Photos

Perhaps you would like to see what you can spot before moving on the the next photo:

I have just noticed something which I had not noticed before, and our photographers had not commented on.

 

We can't identify any feature on the reverse which might have caused this feature on Victoria's nose.

There is something different about her ear.

Die cracks are quite common on shield sovereigns.

A closer view of the die number.

Finally, for now at least, a serration count shot, showing 109.

Come on sovereign lovers, now is your chance to find more interesting features!

😎

[SidS]

Last A in VICTORIA seems to be doubled (as do several other letters). The WW seems a bit mushy.

On the reverse, the area between the shield and the wreath (next to bottom right quarter) there appears to be more die cracks.

Along with serration counts are you going to start doing bead counts? 😉

[Stuntman]

First of all, I think it's a really nice coin.

I also spotted several letter in VICTORIA that appear to be double-struck, also noticed her nose being a bit funny, and the obvious die crack.
I didn't notice anything untoward about her ear.
On the reverse die number, I suspect that's just an overpunched number (reusing die 110 maybe?) or just overpunching the 2.

What else has anyone noticed?

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, SidS said:

Last A in VICTORIA seems to be doubled (as do several other letters). The WW seems a bit mushy.

On the reverse, the area between the shield and the wreath (next to bottom right quarter) there appears to be more die cracks.

Along with serration counts are you going to start doing bead counts? 😉

We have done some denticle counts.

There are a few extra photos to follow.

😎

[Stuntman]

On Victoria's nose, and assuming that it definitely isn't ghosting of any of the wreath leaves from the reverse - perhaps it's just a worn die, or maybe partially weak strike?

See also William IV half crowns on both obverse and reverse (OK, about 35 years earlier...)

[Stuntman]

Also - the die number has not been 'centred' and the 0 is not straight.  I suspect that it may have originally started life as a die with a single digit number, with the 1 and 0 then added and the 2 overpunching the original die number.

[Booky586]

A couple of die clashes on the reverse. The one on the left is the underside of Victoria's chin and the one on the right is the underside of her hair bunch.

I can't see any corresponding clash marks on the obverse though. Is it be because there's more field surface on the obverse?

2 hours ago, Stuntman said:

On the reverse die number, I suspect that's just an overpunched number (reusing die 110 maybe?) or just overpunching the 2.

Yes, something happening here. The number 2 in the die number looks like they've used a larger punch than the 1 and 0.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Booky586

[Stuntman]

Good spots!

You often see a similar die clash (right hand side one) on the reverse of Victoria Young Head shillings.

[Britannia47]

I am seriously impressed with the 152 year old post mortem analysis of this 1870 shield back by members of TSF.  I feel the QC at the time is probably of the same standard as the RMs today!  I often wonder whether the apprentices of the time were given a letter or number punch, with a hammer and told ..... "Do your best boys - no one will notice if you balls it up!"  So once again we have Vicky at the age of 51 (18) looking her best,  with nothing wrong with this coin at all.😺 Die No 92 by the way.

 

 

[Stuntman]

@Britannia47, you have posted some lovely coins (and a banknote) over the last few days.  If you are indeed the poorest member of the forum I still want you to adopt me!

I would LOVE your 1989 quintuple, by the way.  I really want to find the Uncirculated version of that coin rather than the Proof.  I don't have a 1989 sovereign of any description and it's the only relatively recent sovereign that I don't have but would want to own.  Only either a double or quintuple though!

[Britannia47]

13 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

@Britannia47, you have posted some lovely coins (and a banknote) over the last few days.  If you are indeed the poorest member of the forum I still want you to adopt me!

I would LOVE your 1989 quintuple, by the way.  I really want to find the Uncirculated version of that coin rather than the Proof.  I don't have a 1989 sovereign of any description and it's the only relatively recent sovereign that I don't have but would want to own.  Only either a double or quintuple though!

I'm actually a middle aged women, and don't like children. Why would I want to adopt you when you sound like such a very naughty boy!

BTW the 1989 only comes in PROOF. Don't you know anything?!....... 😍xx

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, Stuntman said:

On Victoria's nose, and assuming that it definitely isn't ghosting of any of the wreath leaves from the reverse - perhaps it's just a worn die, or maybe partially weak strike?

See also William IV half crowns on both obverse and reverse (OK, about 35 years earlier...)

Ghosting is different. It is always a soft "ghostly" raised or lowered impression of the other side's design.

These lines are too distinct to be ghosting, and look more like die clash evidence, but don't match up with the reverse design. It is possible there was an earlier brockage which has caused some damage to the obverse die.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, Stuntman said:

Also - the die number has not been 'centred' and the 0 is not straight.  I suspect that it may have originally started life as a die with a single digit number, with the 1 and 0 then added and the 2 overpunching the original die number.

I suspect that as die numbers were always small, intended as a "privy" mark, that nobody worried if they were irregular.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Booky586 said:

A couple of die clashes on the reverse. The one on the left is the underside of Victoria's chin and the one on the right is the underside of her hair bunch.

I can't see any corresponding clash marks on the obverse though. Is it be because there's more field surface on the obverse?

 

Those were indeed two features I had observed, in fact:

Although Doug has cut off part of the LHS feature.

It is quite common to see die clash evidence on the reverse, but not on the obverse, and also vice versa.

😎

[Stuntman]

6 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

I'm actually a middle aged women, and don't like children. Why would I want to adopt you when you sound like such a very naughty boy!

BTW the 1989 only comes in PROOF. Don't you know anything?!....... 😍xx

[Panto mode]

Oh no it doesn't (Mum) 😁 - not in the case of the quintuple...

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/proof-sets/brilliant-uncirculated/1989-five-pound-brilliant-uncirculated-gold-coin-500th-anniversary-no-box-or-cert/

Note the (U) under the portrait on the Obverse.

[/Panto]

[LawrenceChard]

11 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

I'm actually a middle aged women

You look quite young, and very healthy on most of "your" coins!

😎

[Stuntman]

Just wait for next year's RM special release @LawrenceChard:

Britannia - the wilderness years...

😉

[LawrenceChard]

32 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

@Britannia47, you have posted some lovely coins (and a banknote) over the last few days.  If you are indeed the poorest member of the forum I still want you to adopt me!

I would LOVE your 1989 quintuple, by the way.  I really want to find the Uncirculated version of that coin rather than the Proof.  I don't have a 1989 sovereign of any description and it's the only relatively recent sovereign that I don't have but would want to own.  Only either a double or quintuple though!

I don't know about @Stuntman, but @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer have posted a lot of lovely coins over the last few days, mainly to the UK, but some elsewhere also.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

9 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

[Panto mode]

Oh no it doesn't (Mum) 😁 - not in the case of the quintuple...

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/proof-sets/brilliant-uncirculated/1989-five-pound-brilliant-uncirculated-gold-coin-500th-anniversary-no-box-or-cert/

Note the (U) under the portrait on the Obverse.

[/Panto]

Well done!

... and as I said at the time (to the apparent annoyance of the Royal Mint), the "U" was there so that RM staff would know the difference!

😎

[Stuntman]

2937 of the Uncirculated ones actually minted.

The London Coin Company currently has one for sale, graded MS70.  The price is a tad excessive for me...

https://www.thelondoncoincompany.com/store/1989-Tudor-Rose-£5-Sovereign-Gold-Coin-PCGS-MS70-p255593114

[Foster88]

The first thing I noticed was the double struck letters on the obverse in ‘VICTORIA DEI’ but not so much in ‘GRATIA’.

The mint introduced die numbers in 1863 to reduce the prevalence of shoddy workmanship at the mint. So I wonder why so many new, post 1863 shield sovereigns seem to have slipped the quality control net, presuming they had quality control then.

[LawrenceChard]

9 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

2937 of the Uncirculated ones actually minted.

The London Coin Company currently has one for sale, graded MS70.  The price is a tad excessive for me...

https://www.thelondoncoincompany.com/store/1989-Tudor-Rose-£5-Sovereign-Gold-Coin-PCGS-MS70-p255593114

If The London Coin Company had budgies, they wouldn't be going cheap!

😎

[dicker]

The I in GRATIA had a crack going over the top of the I.

I think something odd happened to this specimen.  Might it have been minted with too much pressure?

[LawrenceChard]

14 minutes ago, dicker said:

The I in GRATIA had a crack going over the top of the I.

I think something odd happened to this specimen.  Might it have been minted with too much pressure?

Ah, yes, I can see that with a careful look.

"Under Pressure" - cue music.

Here are a few more photos:

Although this duplicates the previous one.

Showing dies cracks affecting most of the reverse lettering.

 

 

[Britannia47]

1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

2937 of the Uncirculated ones actually minted.

The London Coin Company currently has one for sale, graded MS70.  The price is a tad excessive for me...

https://www.thelondoncoincompany.com/store/1989-Tudor-Rose-£5-Sovereign-Gold-Coin-PCGS-MS70-p255593114

Apologies for my ignorance.  I confused it with my 1982 Maklouf 5 proof sovereign - honest!  Will send off the adoption papers in the morning……Will you need a school uniform?😀