Same Coin Different Photos - The Effect of Lighting in Macro Photography

[SemolinaPilchard]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

We should add a How to Photograph Coins info / blog / guide page to the Chards website.

 

I agree - I shall save Tuesday just for doing it next week.  

[James32]

3 minutes ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

I agree - I shall save Tuesday just for doing it next week.  

Take next week off,you have earned it😁

[jackflash123]

8 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Our first DSSL was a (Nikon compatible) Fuji, but the battery latch failed. We bought a consumer grade Nikon as a spare while it was repaired, only to find the Nikon was not compatible with the Nikon ring flash.

Turned out Canon were the only DSLR maker with a fully compatible macro system at the time.

We binned the Fuji and Nikon, and replaced  everything with Canon kit.

😎

Yeah the Nikon Coolpix P900 was intended for landscape shots and long distance images, as it has an excellent zoom factor, more than most cameras apart from its newer replacement models of course.

I'm not sure it has been designed for closeup images which are destined for websites or magazines etc.

I think a camera that has a healthy balance of both features would be more suitable after taking in this new information.

One that has good zoom capabilities and that can also take beautifully detailed closeups would be ideal. I don't know if said camera exists but I will be looking around to see if one does 👍

[SemolinaPilchard]

2 minutes ago, James32 said:

Take next week off,you have earned it😁

Aww thanks James.  A week on Tuesday it is!

 

[SemolinaPilchard]

4 minutes ago, jackflash123 said:

I think a camera that has a healthy balance of both features would be more suitable after taking in this new information.

 

Interchangeable lens' is what you need - so that usually that limits you to a dslr.

We use a 180mm and a 100mm - both macro - the coin image needs to fill the sensor area to get maximum detail and having both allows us to do that with all coins up to 10oz

65mm macro lens is also good for documenting things like milk spots - but its hard to light the subject as the lens is only a few millimetres away.

Maybe consider the second hand market from a reputable source.  Photographers are always selling kit so they can upgrade.  

 

 

[SemolinaPilchard]

An afterthought about smartphones...I;m not sure how you would synch one to the strobes we use.  There's probably some way but I havn't seen it

We use flash photography...strobes.  

All our images are taken in 1/160th of a second - we control all the light.  

This (drool!) was taken today - I took 3 of the obverse and 2 of the reverse

Total studio time - about 5 minutes

Total editing time about 10 minutes

I don't think **I** could ever get same result with a smartphone

 

[CANV]

When you open a tube of eagles though they will look like the soft box image.  Not the grid 

[jackflash123]

39 minutes ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

An afterthought about smartphones...I;m not sure how you would synch one to the strobes we use.  There's probably some way but I havn't seen it

We use flash photography...strobes.  

All our images are taken in 1/160th of a second - we control all the light.  

This (drool!) was taken today - I took 3 of the obverse and 2 of the reverse

Total studio time - about 5 minutes

Total editing time about 10 minutes

I don't think **I** could ever get same result with a smartphone

 

This information is very fascinating and once I have found a decent camera I will be experimenting with different lighting conditions.

Currently I rely 100% on natural light which causes lots of shadows and reflections and isn't really ideal because the brightness only seems sufficient at certain times of the day.

[SemolinaPilchard]

1 hour ago, CANV said:

When you open a tube of eagles though they will look like the soft box image.  Not the grid 

Maybe..with no movement sat in a tube they may well look like that but when you pick one up to examine and admire it will pick up reflections from 360 degrees enhancing the relief and as you twist and turn it the shadows and reflections will bring out the detail more "grid" like....and that's the moment you'll enjoy more

We want them to look as appealing as we can, of course, whilst retaining accuracy of detail.  

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, James32 said:

Take next week off,you have earned it😁

Don't tell him that, whatever you do!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

An afterthought about smartphones...I;m not sure how you would synch one to the strobes we use.  There's probably some way but I havn't seen it

We use flash photography...strobes.  

All our images are taken in 1/160th of a second - we control all the light.  

This (drool!) was taken today - I took 3 of the obverse and 2 of the reverse

Total studio time - about 5 minutes

Total editing time about 10 minutes

I don't think **I** could ever get same result with a smartphone

 

Yes, that's a mouth watering photo of a very nice coin.

I have seen it before, about 10 minutes ago on our Photography channel.

It's worth showing the reverse as well:

1698 William III gold guinea.

💗

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, jackflash123 said:

This information is very fascinating and once I have found a decent camera I will be experimenting with different lighting conditions.

Currently I rely 100% on natural light which causes lots of shadows and reflections and isn't really ideal because the brightness only seems sufficient at certain times of the day.

I solved that problem by doing most of mine at night!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

All our images are taken in 1/160th of a second - we control all the light.  

 

That means we are paying you about £1 million per hour!

😎

[jackflash123]

3 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

Interchangeable lens' is what you need - so that usually that limits you to a dslr.

We use a 180mm and a 100mm - both macro - the coin image needs to fill the sensor area to get maximum detail and having both allows us to do that with all coins up to 10oz

65mm macro lens is also good for documenting things like milk spots - but its hard to light the subject as the lens is only a few millimetres away.

Maybe consider the second hand market from a reputable source.  Photographers are always selling kit so they can upgrade.  

 

 

Excellent advice thank you. I'm only a novice photographer at best and it's done purely for the pleasure and enjoyment.

To get accurate info like this will really help with my confidence when choosing the right type of camera.

Thanks so much 🙏 

[Booky586]

5 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

Thanks Booky.

I'm training a new recruit in how we take coin photos and she did both methods.

Yes...I prefer barn doors with grid attachment - but sometimes, especially with polished silver, it introduces shadows (or more accurately light fall off) on the edges.  I do persevere with the grid though and usually find a way with it.  The softbox does lose detail sometimes - but sometimes it's the only way with highly polished coins or we'd get too much blowout.

Is it possible to splice you ask - yes of course it is but that's very time consuming and we have so much to do it's not really worth the benefits.   However.....I do have a solution ...I keep my beauty dish at the studio which does sometimes play ball and give a good in between.   From my portrait days in my studio it was my modifier of choice but takes an eternity to master properly....and I've found that it's the same with coins.....if using that most days I'll just revert to one of the other modifiers but just occasionally it works and that's a "oooohhh - thats nice - I'll look forward to editing this one!" moment.

Just in case you're interested I'll link to an article my pal did about the axial lighting setup we use.  It's been linked before and a little out of date (we now have under product lighting also so we can capture the serrations)  I'll bring it up to date when I have time (I know I said this before too :))

https://www.diyphotography.net/use-mirrors-get-perfect-axial-lighting-macro-subjects/

 

 

Thanks for the knowledge.

TBH I have very limited photographic experience and had to look up "beauty dish" on the net!

I do use the axial lighting method to take photos of my coins though, inspired by the links you've mentioned. It was a long and painful learning process before I got any decent results but certainly worth the effort. What I wanted was a technique that would reproduce the same high standard time after time. It never quite happened as I found different coins (e.g. gold, silver, proof, very worn) require different settings, lighting being one of them. So I've taken the lazy option of just using a softbox for now as I find it the most forgiving. The direct light was just too hard to control.

 

5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

We should add a How to Photograph Coins info / blog / guide page to the Chards website.

It would help numismatists worldwide, and might encourage some of our less ethical competitors to take their own photos instead of using our high quality copyright ones.

That's a good idea and would make a great reference point. There's so little information out there about axial lighting, @SemolinaPilchard and yourself really are trail blazing for numismatic photography, share the knowledge!

[LawrenceChard]

29 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Thanks for the knowledge.

TBH I have very limited photographic experience and had to look up "beauty dish" on the net!

I do use the axial lighting method to take photos of my coins though, inspired by the links you've mentioned. It was a long and painful learning process before I got any decent results but certainly worth the effort. What I wanted was a technique that would reproduce the same high standard time after time. It never quite happened as I found different coins (e.g. gold, silver, proof, very worn) require different settings, lighting being one of them. So I've taken the lazy option of just using a softbox for now as I find it the most forgiving. The direct light was just too hard to control.

That's a good idea and would make a great reference point. There's so little information out there about axial lighting, @SemolinaPilchard and yourself really are trail blazing for numismatic photography, share the knowledge!

When Doug said "beauty dish", I always used to look in the mirror, but it didn't help.

We used to use my "heavy breathing" technique, which I showed Doug, but he wasn't really impressed, and got variable results. That's when he went out and learnt about axial lighting.

Our original photographer was always reluctant to share techniques or information, probably because he thought it undermined his job. I can understand that, but it is a rather selfish attitude.

😎

[SemolinaPilchard]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

We used to use my "heavy breathing" technique, which I showed Doug, but he wasn't really impressed, and got variable results. That's when he went out and learnt about axial lighting.

Our original photographer was always reluctant to share techniques or information, probably because he thought it undermined his job. I can understand that, but it is a rather selfish attitude.

😎

Indeed.  If Gale Spring hadn't taken the time to make that video I'd still be huffing and puffing all over a 1698 guinea.  

The video was posted in 2015 - yet he retired in 2013.  It does look a little dated in the equipment he used (cine projector).  I suspect the video is probably from a much earlier time.
But the principle he teaches is the same, of course.   It did take me quite a few nights before I stumbled across it.  

And there's the thing - he didn't need to post that video - he was just happy to share the knowledge.  I've tried a couple of times to find a contact email to thank him personally but failed - so sometimes I'll just raise a glass of wine and wish him a happy retirement.

[SemolinaPilchard]

3 hours ago, Booky586 said:

So I've taken the lazy option of just using a softbox for now as I find it the most forgiving. The direct light was just too hard to control.

 

Nothing wrong with that - you use the option that gives best results v time spent.

More direct light (grid) is all about the power - so its essential to have a good range you can go through.

And remember you also have distance to play with - pulling that strobe back 6/12 inches can make a world of difference

As regards modifiers...I suspect a Mola Sollo Beauty dish would be perfect for coins...I always wanted one in studio but it wasn't a business - just a hobby - and I couldn't justify the outlay of £700/£800 

If @LawrenceChard wants to take a gamble and get one ...if all else fails we'll have the best staff photos on the planet.

[LawrenceChard]

12 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

Nothing wrong with that - you use the option that gives best results v time spent.

More direct light (grid) is all about the power - so its essential to have a good range you can go through.

And remember you also have distance to play with - pulling that strobe back 6/12 inches can make a world of difference

As regards modifiers...I suspect a Mola Sollo Beauty dish would be perfect for coins...I always wanted one in studio but it wasn't a business - just a hobby - and I couldn't justify the outlay of £700/£800 

If @LawrenceChard wants to take a gamble and get one ...if all else fails we'll have the best staff photos on the planet.

If we buy one of those, we will need to charge everyone "Double Postage", but all they want is "Free Postage"!

😎

Edited July 23, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

Nothing wrong with that - you use the option that gives best results v time spent.

More direct light (grid) is all about the power - so its essential to have a good range you can go through.

And remember you also have distance to play with - pulling that strobe back 6/12 inches can make a world of difference

As regards modifiers...I suspect a Mola Sollo Beauty dish would be perfect for coins...I always wanted one in studio but it wasn't a business - just a hobby - and I couldn't justify the outlay of £700/£800 

If @LawrenceChard wants to take a gamble and get one ...if all else fails we'll have the best staff photos on the planet.

If we get one, could you make me look like a 29 year old Tom Cruise, but about a foot taller, so I wouldn't have to stand on a couple of Monster Boxes?

Also, for coins, would it improve milk spots on silver coins, and red spot on fine gold ones?

...

And, are they used or endorsed by Ellie Sedgwick?

😎

Edited July 23, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[SemolinaPilchard]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

If we get one, could you make me look like a 29 year old Tom Cruise, but about a foot taller, so I wouldn't have to stand on a couple of Monster Boxes?

Also, for coins, would it improve milk spots on silver coins, and red spot on fine gold ones?

...

And, are they used or endorsed by Ellie Sedgwick?

😎

Alas, no.  You cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

It would probably show milk spots in even greater detail - could be worth it to make Royal Mint even more embarrassed.

Huh..Ellie who?

They would, of course, be complete overkill and I don't even know if they would work.  Equipment we use (even the old Canon EOS 5d) are more than adequate

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by SemolinaPilchard

[LawrenceChard]

8 minutes ago, SemolinaPilchard said:

Alas, no.  You cant make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

It would probably show milk spots in even greater detail - could be worth it to make Royal Mint even more embarrassed.

Huh..Ellie who?

They would, of course, be complete overkill and I don't even know if they would work.  Equipment we use (even the old Canon EOS 5d) are more than adequate

 

1) ☹️

2) ☹️

3) Ellie Sedgwick - Look her up on Google

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/07/2022 at 14:49, jackflash123 said:

Yeah the Nikon Coolpix P900 was intended for landscape shots and long distance images, as it has an excellent zoom factor, more than most cameras apart from its newer replacement models of course.

I'm not sure it has been designed for closeup images which are destined for websites or magazines etc.

I think a camera that has a healthy balance of both features would be more suitable after taking in this new information.

One that has good zoom capabilities and that can also take beautifully detailed closeups would be ideal. I don't know if said camera exists but I will be looking around to see if one does 👍

The Nikon Coolpix P900 is a bridge camera, not a DSLR. It was only introduced in 2015, and would be unsuitable for macro work.

Our FinePix S1 Pro, introduced in 2000, was a DSLR, with interchangeable lenses. I don't remember off-hand the model of the Nikon we replaced it with, but it also was a DSLR, probably a D100.

To do good quality macro photography requires a dedicated macro lens.

Although the Coolpix P900 has an 83x zoom factor, this means it would not be optimised for most of that range.

It is not a matter of whether "said camera exists", but whether the lens exists for the job in hand.

If you want a lower cost solution, I would suggest Canon EF-S lenses on a Canon APS-C type camera body. The Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM is a good quality macro lens.

Other manufacturers also make comparable systems. I prefer Canon.

 

 

 

[jackflash123]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

The Nikon Coolpix P900 is a bridge camera, not a DSLR. It was only introduced in 2015, and would be unsuitable for macro work.

Our FinePix S1 Pro, introduced in 2000, was a DSLR, with interchangeable lenses. I don't remember off-hand the model of the Nikon we replaced it with, but it also was a DSLR, probably a D100.

To do good quality macro photography requires a dedicated macro lens.

Although the Coolpix P900 has an 83x zoom factor, this means it would not be optimised for most of that range.

It is not a matter of whether "said camera exists", but whether the lens exists for the job in hand.

If you want a lower cost solution, I would suggest Canon EF-S lenses on a Canon APS-C type camera body. The Canon EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM is a good quality macro lens.

Other manufacturers also make comparable systems. I prefer Canon.

 

 

 

That's some good knowledge and recommendation for a decent camera for macro images.

Always happy to take advice, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post 👍

[Britannia47]

On 21/07/2022 at 19:59, LawrenceChard said:

Same Coin Different Photos - The Effect of Lighting in Macro Photography

I recently posted an outtake on a gold coin, but this shows good photos of an ASE American Silver Eagle, compared with much better photos of the same coin using different lighting technique:

2019 American Silver Eagle shot with "Softbox"

2019 American Silver Eagle shot with "Softbox"

Followed by

2019 American Silver Eagle shot with "Grid"

Teams chat:

I prefer grid. Which do you like?

If you prefer softbox then give the reverse a lick of dehaze just on the left (do you see how it's more blown on left?

(Camera raw and press "k" to enter adjustment brush and make sure only setting changed is dehaze).

But grid is much more eye catching IMHO

 

Some difference, heh?

😎

No doubt about it LC & Doug - you do the best detailed coin photos. with the best lighting/cameras/and lenses. I've almost stopped using using my canon, and instead leave it to my Iphone now! The resolution is good enough to see most detail when zooming, but of course lacks the macro element. My photos are raw, using natural light and hand held and only cropped. I've just taken a pic of a silver dollar for comparison. Too much manipulation seems leave a photo flat, IMO, although detailed. I like a coin to look like a coin. This is the best I could do. Any blemishes are to do with the age of the coin 1995!!!