An Intriguing 1912-L London Mint Gold Sovereign

[LawrenceChard]

An Intriguing 1912-L London Mint Gold Sovereign

Anybody care to venture any opinions on this:

Obverse above, reverse below:

Try to avoid cheating by looking at the image filenames!

 

[Booky586]

There's something strange with king George's eye, it's the wrong shape, as if the gold has melted. And the rim of the obverse looks thicker and more worn between 12 and 3 o'clock.

[James32]

St George's stomach and floating hand.

Horses hair/or lack thereof.

[dicker]

Counterfeit but with decent relief - the fields don’t look too badly don’t either.

 

[Scootermuppet]

🤔 after some extensive research, and getting hold of a copy of The Sovereign Series (Marsh) I think I can say with some certainty that... it's a Sovereign... 😊

Seriously though, as I still have my 'L' Plates on when it comes to Sovereigns, I honestly don't think I'd have spotted it straight off if handed the coin to look at - serves as a timely reminder to make sure I only buy from trusted sources while I learn to spot them. Thanks for the post @LawrenceChard - valuable stuff for us Sovereign newbies 👍

Guess it's all about learning your subject - I could spot a fake Kew Gardens 50p straight away, but they are a lot easier than Sovereigns to identify...

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Scootermuppet Good to see you getting into sovereigns mate.  (Marsh) is a good book to start with and it's best to pair it with a copy of Spink, as not all varieties are listed in marsh and vice versa I find myself using both books in tandem plus Spink has a pricing guide. 

https://www.chards.co.uk/2022-spink-coins-of-england-and-the-uk-predecimal-issue/15492

https://www.chards.co.uk/2020-spink-coins-of-england-and-the-uk-bundle/11619   this is a steal at £18 quid.  

Depends how deep you get, and trust me there is one rabbit hole after another "A history of the Sovereign chief coin of the world"  is a good read.  

And don't forget your friendly TSF grader🤗 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scootermuppet]

Thanks Dave - I have the Decimal edition of Spink, which has the modern Sovs in & the Marsh Guide - that's probably enough for now! 😂

Still at the beginning of the journey, but hope to be able to acquire some over the next few years 🙂 - probably start with Bullion ones at first then maybe upgrade to some nicer ones as I go...

(about to send some images over re: our grading conversation yesterday 👍)

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Scootermuppet Also mate once you get your head in a few books you will be able to take your "L" plates off............Just like all sovereigns minted in London.....One for the numismatists.  

 

 

[RDHC]

Very odd line on the left of the obverse, joining the tops of the letters.

[LawrenceChard]

22 hours ago, Booky586 said:

There's something strange with king George's eye, it's the wrong shape, as if the gold has melted. And the rim of the obverse looks thicker and more worn between 12 and 3 o'clock.

 

21 hours ago, James32 said:

St George's stomach and floating hand.

Horses hair/or lack thereof.

 

14 hours ago, dicker said:

Counterfeit but with decent relief - the fields don’t look too badly don’t either.

 

 

9 hours ago, RDHC said:

Very odd line on the left of the obverse, joining the tops of the letters.

 

14 hours ago, Scootermuppet said:

🤔 after some extensive research, and getting hold of a copy of The Sovereign Series (Marsh) I think I can say with some certainty that... it's a Sovereign... 😊

Seriously though, as I still have my 'L' Plates on when it comes to Sovereigns, I honestly don't think I'd have spotted it straight off if handed the coin to look at - serves as a timely reminder to make sure I only buy from trusted sources while I learn to spot them. Thanks for the post @LawrenceChard - valuable stuff for us Sovereign newbies 👍

Guess it's all about learning your subject - I could spot a fake Kew Gardens 50p straight away, but they are a lot easier than Sovereigns to identify...

 

13 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@Scootermuppet Good to see you getting into sovereigns mate.  (Marsh) is a good book to start with and it's best to pair it with a copy of Spink, as not all varieties are listed in marsh and vice versa I find myself using both books in tandem plus Spink has a pricing guide. 

https://www.chards.co.uk/2022-spink-coins-of-england-and-the-uk-predecimal-issue/15492

https://www.chards.co.uk/2020-spink-coins-of-england-and-the-uk-bundle/11619   this is a steal at £18 quid.  

Depends how deep you get, and trust me there is one rabbit hole after another "A history of the Sovereign chief coin of the world"  is a good read.  

And don't forget your friendly TSF grader🤗 

 

@RDHC mentioned what looks like a die crack, but...

I think it looks too "soft" and wobbly to be an actual die crack.

My hypothesis is that a mould was taken from a genuine sovereign which had a die crack, but that this has lost some of its sharpness in reproduction.

My overwhelming conclusion is that coin is fake, but a very convincing one. I could, of course, be wrong.

We created an expanded view of the "die crack":

There is also further evidence:

The weight is good at 7.9818 grams.

Obverse: Gold 910 ppt + 4 ppt = 914 ppt, which is just outside the specification window

Reverse: Gold 911 ppt + 4 ppt = 915 ppt, which is also just outside the specification window

While it is possible to get "wrong" readings from a Niton XRF machine, I am not aware of getting bad readings on old sovereigns.

I also note the silver content is slightly lower than I would have expected. I would have considered 3 or 4 ppt as normal.

Taking both of the elements together provides storn evidence that the coin is fake.

Just for good measure, we did a serration count image, which I have yet to compare with a known genuine 1912-L:

But 110 sounds right.

It is frustrating, but fascinating to come across a sovereign which I think is fake, but about which I am reluctant to allow myself to feel absolutely certain.

I / we will be retaining this coin. It could be some time before I find someone whose second opinion I would fully trust and respect, until then it will remain a slight enigma.

Perhaps I should store it next to one of the new Alan Turing coins!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

23 hours ago, Booky586 said:

There's something strange with king George's eye, it's the wrong shape, as if the gold has melted. And the rim of the obverse looks thicker and more worn between 12 and 3 o'clock.

Yes, I need to take another look at the indent near the eye, and also the rim.

[dicker]

So the bits that thought were odd were:

- Moustache - oddly “worn”

- Ear lobe 

- Horses mane - a little sparse!

- Odd clump in St G’s streamer

- Being picky but the serifs are not super sharp

I saw the die crack but didn’t clock that it was not that sharp… Live and learn!

Best

Dicker