1919 London Mint Gold Sovereign Enquiry from Germany

[LawrenceChard]

1919 London Mint Gold Sovereign Enquiry from Germany

A well-known Blackpool dealer received this enquiry recently:

Dear Chards employee,
I spoke to one of your employees, Robin, just a few minutes ago. She was very kind, listened to my situation and gave me this email address.
I have a 1919 sovereign, which appears not to have a mint mark. If my (very basic) research is correct, a missing mint mark would imply the London mint, but on the other hand no sovereigns were minted in London in 1919.
This would mean that the coin I have is a forgery. However, I was at a local, reputable coin and metal dealer a month ago, and the coin had the right weight, diameter and thickness, so that the dealer was comfortable enough to buy it off me as bullion for about 330 pounds. 
I am intrigued however, because I do not understand why anyone would put in the time and effort to produce such a coin for possibly no gain.
Robin suggested the possibility of the mint mark having become illegible, and so I am sending you these photographs. I would be grateful if you were to have a look. Perhaps you can determine whether there was a mark that is now illegible.
I would be very thankful for any information you might provide to me regarding this coin.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Eduardo ------

Not a great photo, but good enough to be happy about the absence of a mintmark, and not the world's worst fake.

A rather grainy look, enough to require closer examination.

Dear Eduardo, 

I have had a word with our Director who has mentioned that the coin is likely to be a fake sovereign, which might still test close enough to the actual metal weight and purity of an actual sovereign. 

We have written a blog on fakes, forgeries on sovereigns along with photos linked here https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/fakes-forgeries-and-counterfeit-gold-coins-and-sovereigns/167
Could you let us know where you got the item from? Did you sell the item locally?

Kind Regards,

Bhumika

Customer Service  

 

Dear Bhumika,
Thank you for taking a look at the sovereign. The coin has been in our family for more than 70 years. It belonged to my maternal grandfather, who was a jeweller in South America, in Ecuador. I don't know where he got it from.
I haven't sold the coin yet, but a month ago I asked a local coin dealer what he would give me for the sovereign, a 1910 St. Gaudens double eagle and a small collection of 18th century Spanish silver coins (16 of them, mostly 2 Real pieces).
I'm in Germany. The dealer's offer seemed consistent throughout: He offered me 380 euros for the sovereign, 1700 euros for the St. Gaudens 20 Dollar gold coin and 130 euros for the silver coins. I told him about the mismatch between the year and the mint mark (or lack thereof) of the sovereign, and he didn't seem to mind; he just weighed it and measured it.
I have considered trying to sell the coins online on my own in order to try to get more for them, but the sovereign presents a problem, because I don't really know how to describe it: "Selling a 7.99 g lump of 22 ct gold in the shape of a sovereign"?
What remains a mystery to me is why anyone would bother to make a forgery that has only a bullion worth equal to that of the real thing, especially since it's not a reproduction of a highly collectible coin either. It's a lot of work for no gain! 
Knowing this would be useful in order to include the information when selling, so if you know the history behind this, I'd certainly appreciate your sharing it!
Thanks again for your help!
Cheers,
Eduardo

 

The above is fairly typical of enquiries we receive most days.

Eduardo has done well to work out it's a fake coin, and sounds very ethical, so it's nice to try to help him.

It's also a compliment that someone in Germany reaches out to us here in Blackpool, England, ro help and advice.

Although I have written many times about the different reasons to counterfeit coins, and the high premium in the past for bullion sovereigns, it sounds like I need to create yet another blog / info page, to explain this, and ensure that we have a comprehensive guide (and a book).

His brief provenance notes place this coin as having been acquired in about 1950, which corresponds to the period when the Royal Mint were re-striking 1925 London Mint sovereigns, and the international premium on bullion sovereigns was likely to be between 20% and 50%, make counterfeiting highly profitable.

If we learn where he is based, I will share the information here.

Meanwhile, it is yet another interesting fake sovereign.

😎

 

 

[dicker]

You could write a book about this..

- German

- In South America just after WWII

- Gold

- Forgery

- Reaching out to an elder statesman in the PM industry to dispose of the gold

Best

Dicker

[LawrenceChard]

18 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

1919 London Mint Gold Sovereign Enquiry from Germany

A well-known Blackpool dealer received this enquiry recently:

Dear Chards employee,
I spoke to one of your employees, Robin, just a few minutes ago. She was very kind, listened to my situation and gave me this email address.
I have a 1919 sovereign, which appears not to have a mint mark. If my (very basic) research is correct, a missing mint mark would imply the London mint, but on the other hand no sovereigns were minted in London in 1919.
This would mean that the coin I have is a forgery. However, I was at a local, reputable coin and metal dealer a month ago, and the coin had the right weight, diameter and thickness, so that the dealer was comfortable enough to buy it off me as bullion for about 330 pounds. 
I am intrigued however, because I do not understand why anyone would put in the time and effort to produce such a coin for possibly no gain.
Robin suggested the possibility of the mint mark having become illegible, and so I am sending you these photographs. I would be grateful if you were to have a look. Perhaps you can determine whether there was a mark that is now illegible.
I would be very thankful for any information you might provide to me regarding this coin.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Eduardo ------

Not a great photo, but good enough to be happy about the absence of a mintmark, and not the world's worst fake.

A rather grainy look, enough to require closer examination.

Dear Eduardo, 

I have had a word with our Director who has mentioned that the coin is likely to be a fake sovereign, which might still test close enough to the actual metal weight and purity of an actual sovereign. 

We have written a blog on fakes, forgeries on sovereigns along with photos linked here https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/fakes-forgeries-and-counterfeit-gold-coins-and-sovereigns/167
Could you let us know where you got the item from? Did you sell the item locally?

Kind Regards,

Bhumika

Customer Service  

 

Dear Bhumika,
Thank you for taking a look at the sovereign. The coin has been in our family for more than 70 years. It belonged to my maternal grandfather, who was a jeweller in South America, in Ecuador. I don't know where he got it from.
I haven't sold the coin yet, but a month ago I asked a local coin dealer what he would give me for the sovereign, a 1910 St. Gaudens double eagle and a small collection of 18th century Spanish silver coins (16 of them, mostly 2 Real pieces).
I'm in Germany. The dealer's offer seemed consistent throughout: He offered me 380 euros for the sovereign, 1700 euros for the St. Gaudens 20 Dollar gold coin and 130 euros for the silver coins. I told him about the mismatch between the year and the mint mark (or lack thereof) of the sovereign, and he didn't seem to mind; he just weighed it and measured it.
I have considered trying to sell the coins online on my own in order to try to get more for them, but the sovereign presents a problem, because I don't really know how to describe it: "Selling a 7.99 g lump of 22 ct gold in the shape of a sovereign"?
What remains a mystery to me is why anyone would bother to make a forgery that has only a bullion worth equal to that of the real thing, especially since it's not a reproduction of a highly collectible coin either. It's a lot of work for no gain! 
Knowing this would be useful in order to include the information when selling, so if you know the history behind this, I'd certainly appreciate your sharing it!
Thanks again for your help!
Cheers,
Eduardo

 

The above is fairly typical of enquiries we receive most days.

Eduardo has done well to work out it's a fake coin, and sounds very ethical, so it's nice to try to help him.

It's also a compliment that someone in Germany reaches out to us here in Blackpool, England, ro help and advice.

Although I have written many times about the different reasons to counterfeit coins, and the high premium in the past for bullion sovereigns, it sounds like I need to create yet another blog / info page, to explain this, and ensure that we have a comprehensive guide (and a book).

His brief provenance notes place this coin as having been acquired in about 1950, which corresponds to the period when the Royal Mint were re-striking 1925 London Mint sovereigns, and the international premium on bullion sovereigns was likely to be between 20% and 50%, make counterfeiting highly profitable.

If we learn where he is based, I will share the information here.

Meanwhile, it is yet another interesting fake sovereign.

😎

 

 

 

17 hours ago, dicker said:

You could write a book about this..

- German

- In South America just after WWII

- Gold

- Forgery

- Reaching out to an elder statesman in the PM industry to dispose of the gold

Best

Dicker

Could probably sell it via St. James Auctions!

😎

[dicker]

Ja, Herr Chard

[edux]

Hi! I'm Eduardo, the owner of the coin, I opened a profile here just to say hello.

I haven't sold the coin. Though counterfeit, I've become attached to it somehow, due to its provenance and because I've learned a lot of interesting things just by trying to find out what it is. Times are a bit rough, though, and I may do so later.

Herr Dicker's thesis regarding a possible movie-worthy background story to the coin is indeed fascinating, and so I hesitate to mention that I am not of German extraction, I hold a Spanish passport and I am headquartered in ... Sheffield. I just travel a lot. As for my grandfather's contacts, I'll have to ask my mother whether she remembers any of them having funny accents.

Seeing as how I am now famous (!) maybe I should contact St. James Auctions...the coin may be counterfeit, but it's good gold, and on top of it, there's a story!

I've got more pictures if anyone wants to see them.

Thanks to Herr Chard for the help.

Edited July 24, 2022 by edux

[dicker]

Dear Edux

As for anyone who joins the forum, welcome.  It is a brilliant place for PM’s and increasingly numismatic coins.

Great that you joined and would be great to see more pics.

All the very best to you

Dicker

[Booky586]

Hi Eduardo,

Welcome to TSF with a lovely story and fascinating introduction!

Cheers, Chris

[jultorsk]

2 hours ago, edux said:

 

Seeing as how I am now famous (!) maybe I should contact St. James Auctions...the coin may be counterfeit, but it's good gold, and on top of it, there's a story!

I've got more pictures if anyone wants to see them.

Thanks to Herr Chard for the help.

Welcome to TSF @edux

@LawrenceChardreference to StJ might have alluded to this thread where he was instrumental in identifying another counterfeit sovereign. 😉

 

[Arganto]

Nice to see a follow up like this and a new member acquired to boot.

I'd keep it too @edux

[edux]

A few more pics...