The coming Gold crash

[Prophecy]

46 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

one of the best things about currency is it's flexible. a £10 does exist in my hand

before I spend it. currency can be in the credit card account waiting to be spent.

in it's physical form the £10 note was printed as currency before the bank lent me

the physical note. the bank did not print the £10 on demand for loans. it already

printed the £10 note waiting to lend it to someone(like me).

 

the problem is the likes of mike maloney is skewing your understanding of currency.

the printing/creation of currency is a lot more complicated than they make it out to

be. part of the complexity involves the application of time. the mechanics is nowhere

near as simple as printing out of thin air(but then that would not sound as fraudulent)

 

HH

 

Not sure who you are actually replying to but Mike Maloney is extremely biased, he takes a core truth and wrings it out to suit his angle. Whenever I hear his name mentioned I know someone hasn't dug very deeply beyond the first results on Google/YouTube. He sells gold, what can I say. And I have already said that it is all incredibly complicated and counterintuitive to our lizard brains. Whether you believe gold will crash or soar, for how long and how far, it's good to hedge your mind with different perspectives and always double check that your beliefs aren't getting in the way of basic information. 

If you think a bank can only lend money that it already has, then you have just decreased the size of the financial industry by many magnitudes and gone back in time probably 400 years. If you haven't heard of fractional reserve banking then now is as good a time as any. (the top results will not be Mike Maloney so don't worry.)

Edited June 4, 2020 by Prophecy

[HawkHybrid]

2 hours ago, Wonger said:

you are a complete fraud here to spread miss information

 

says the person that started a 'gold will crash' thread over two months ago.

so far not even a sausage, I've seen paint dry faster than this.

 

HH

[TheApe]

Wow, you guys are still going. I'd like to say something.

Gold could crash, gold could boom. We can debate the probability of outcomes..

But once someone states that 100 percent gold will crash or rise. Or once someone sets a specific target, they have lost a lot of respect as anyone with experience knows there are no certainties.

I hope this makes sense and all parties can please consider.

Edited June 4, 2020 by TheApe
Spelling

[HawkHybrid]

2 minutes ago, Prophecy said:

Not sure who you are actually replying to but Mike Maloney is extremely biased, he takes a core truth and wrings it out to suit his angle. Whenever I hear his name mentioned I know someone hasn't dug very deeply beyond the first results on Google/YouTube. He sells gold, what can I say. And I have already said that it is all incredibly complicated and counterintuitive to our lizard brains. Whether you believe gold will crash or soar, for how long and how far, it's good to hedge your mind with different perspectives and always double check that your beliefs aren't getting in the way of basic information. 

If you think a bank can only lend money that it already has, then you have just decreased the size of the financial industry by many magnitudes and gone back in time probably 400 years. If you haven't heard of fractional reserve banking then now is as good a time as any. (the top results will not be Mike Maloney so don't worry.)

 

mike maloney is always pushing the line that banks are fraudulent because they

can now lend more than they have in deposits. ie create currency out of thin air.

this is only partly true. the important part is that it is a zero sum process. they can

create currency(fractional reserve banking) but it's only there for the convenience

of accountancy.

the only reason why currency is created when you spend on a credit card is because

it's convenient for it to be so,(due to there being more loans than deposits). this is

not part of the way that the credit card system must work. you can allocate existing

currency to credit card balances.

 

HH

[Prophecy]

TBH I don't care if gold crashes. I and many others will be buying. It's whether it stays crashed is the problem.

[HerefordBullyun]

1 minute ago, Prophecy said:

 It's whether it stays crashed is the problem.

More chance of platting poo with knitting needles.

[Prophecy]

1 minute ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

mike maloney is always pushing the line that banks are fraudulent because they

can now lend more than they have in deposits. ie create currency out of thin air.

this is only partly true. the important part is that it is a zero sum process. they can

create currency(fractional reserve banking) but it's only there for the convenience

of accountancy.

the only reason why currency is created when you spend on a credit card is because

it's convenient for it to be so,(due to there being more loans than deposits). this is

not part of the way that the credit card system must work. you can allocate existing

currency to credit card balances.

 

HH

But it is what it is, not what it should be. Conveniences make the monetary world go round whether we like it or not and this shortcutting will not go away.

---

Added 0 minutes later...

2 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

More chance of platting poo with knitting needles.

Exactly.

[5huggy]

5 minutes ago, HawkHybrid said:

the important part is that it is a zero sum process.

   NOT if you understand derivatives!, CFD, MBS, etc etc

[TheApe]

Just now, Prophecy said:

TBH I don't care if gold crashes. I and many others will be buying. It's whether it stays crashed is the problem.

I wouldn't be delighted but it wouldn't effect me too much. I have money in other thing that is a much greater concern right now.

But a crash is one thing, there is nearly no chance it goes to 400 euro. I will never say never of course, anything is possible. I put a much bigger chance on gold rising as either the dollar or stock market crashes or both.

Or maybe things begin to normalize. Us little people don't impact or predict markets, we only make educated guesses and watch.

[Wonger]

.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Wonger

[Minimalist]

22 hours ago, sixgun said:

The argument being put forward by the Wonger is that prices cannot rise until and unless there is more currency to support those higher prices. 

So if the amount of currency in circulation is fixed, if one price goes up, others must go down. 
He ignores money velocity.

Thats exactly the truth

When the population and governments of a whole are borrowing from banks they are borrowing from the future - making productive spending now (pulling future production into the present). The banks act as judges of credit to keep account of all the liabilities generated and act as loan/issue service/financial terrorist. In return they are paid handsomely from the interest; It is the people and governments (who are deceived from this scam) that create credit who view it as "money". This increases prices.

Velocity is a scam and cannot be measured though; Keynesian economics do not include banks excess reserves (which arent being lent out) and they actually believe credit (borrowing from the future) as money. That is a fraud - Its absolute insanity.

The greater printing/issuing of currency (credit/debt), stocks and derivatives there is... Price will increase (goods, services and paper contracts/derivatives) - BUT! and a HUGE BUT is that Financial instruments get liquidated like paper gold for physical gold. This is what @Wonger fails to accept, he thinks that because 'x' amount of commercial entities are dumping paper gold that it represents the physical gold market, it doesnt, the paper gold market is a profit mechanism through inflation to redeem the profits for physical gold. He actually thinks commercial short orders is some sort of metal apocalypse when the paper currency is going right into the physical gold. Commercial hedgers, financial executives and central bankers are redeeming paper gold for physical gold.

Paper gold is created/increases - creating a new high - sold/shorted - paper gold decreases - generated inflated profits used to purchase physical gold (giving demand for gold manufacturers/miners). A massive scam/wealth transfer for central bankers to use credit/debt for assets which @HawkHybrid will say is a bias or a conspiracy theory. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Minimalist
Paper Gold - Physical Gold

[Minimalist]

14 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

we all have bias, but we can try to limit the extent to which the bias affect our lives.

HH, theres nothing bias about my posts.

The banking cartel use debt to steal assets; the conveyance of a house/property/land/etc is one of the biggest acts of deceptions ever committed along with paper markets which we are discussing in right now [thread]. Its institutional financial terrorism on a global scale and primary serves a handful of elites.

[Wonger]

7 hours ago, Minimalist said:

Thats exactly the truth

When the population and governments of a whole are borrowing from banks they are borrowing from the future - making productive spending now (pulling future production into the present). The banks act as judges of credit to keep account of all the liabilities generated and act as loan/issue service/financial terrorist. In return they are paid handsomely from the interest; It is the people and governments (who are deceived from this scam) that create credit who view it as "money". This increases prices.

Velocity is a scam and cannot be measured though; Keynesian economics do not include banks excess reserves (which arent being lent out) and they actually believe credit (borrowing from the future) as money. That is a fraud - Its absolute insanity.

The greater printing/issuing of currency (credit/debt), stocks and derivatives there is... Price will increase (goods, services and paper contracts/derivatives) - BUT! and a HUGE BUT is that Financial instruments get liquidated like paper gold for physical gold. This is what @Wonger fails to accept, he thinks that because 'x' amount of commercial entities are dumping paper gold that it represents the physical gold market, it doesnt, the paper gold market is a profit mechanism through inflation to redeem the profits for physical gold. He actually thinks commercial short orders is some sort of metal apocalypse when the paper currency is going right into the physical gold. Commercial hedgers, financial executives and central bankers are redeeming paper gold for physical gold.

Paper gold is created/increases - creating a new high - sold/shorted - paper gold decreases - generated inflated profits used to purchase physical gold (giving demand for gold manufacturers/miners). A massive scam/wealth transfer for central bankers to use credit/debt for assets which @HawkHybrid will say is a bias or a conspiracy theory. 

Well if the Futures price of Gold (set by Comex) and the Spot price of Gold (set twice daily by London Bankers who run the Comex) falls to my target of $385, then none of you have anything to worry about have you, because Im totally wrong in thinking anyone holding physical will see its value decline substantially and anyone who waited to buy will be paying substantially less than today as the physical premium will be $1300 and we all live happily ever after 😁 

[Wonger]

12 hours ago, HawkHybrid said:

 

one of the best things about currency is it's flexible. a £10 does exist in my hand

before I spend it. currency can be in the credit card account waiting to be spent.

in it's physical form the £10 note was printed as currency before the bank lent me

the physical note. the bank did not print the £10 on demand for loans. it already

printed the £10 note waiting to lend it to someone(like me). this is banks borrowing

and lending the old fashion way. banks borrow from depositers and lend to people.

when they don't have the physical currency to lend out, they use a technique to create

additional currency/credit by creating currency against the assets. they could create

additional currency against assets for each loan that they give, but it's a zero net sum

accountancy manoeuvre that only affects the internal structure of the accounting so

doesn't affect the loan. it's like slicing up a cake is arbitrary if you are going to eat the

whole cake anyway(it's just convenient to slice it into more practical sizes).

 

the problem is the likes of mike maloney is skewing your understanding of currency.

the printing/creation of currency is a lot more complicated than they make it out to

be. part of the complexity involves the application of time. the mechanics is nowhere

near as simple as printing out of thin air(but then that would not sound as fraudulent).

 

HH

 

I hope your not actually expecting anyone to believe this complete and utter non sense! 😁

[sixgun]

17 hours ago, Prophecy said:

If you think a bank can only lend money that it already has, then you have just decreased the size of the financial industry by many magnitudes and gone back in time probably 400 years. If you haven't heard of fractional reserve banking then now is as good a time as any. (the top results will not be Mike Maloney so don't worry.)

 

Banks don't lend currency. When you use a credit card you create a promise the bank buys from you, when you sign the car loan, there is the asset the bank buys, when you take out a mortgage application, there is the promissory note. A promissory note shall be treated as cash. These are instruments with a yield which the bank buys and often then sells. The bank enters a credit in your account with which the house, car, tank of petrol is bought.
This is how currency is made. The High Street banks create the vast majority of the currency. It is created on the fly with a credit card. They do not lend currency - they buy the financial assets their customers create. They create currency when they enter the credit in the customer's account.

The Bank of England says that most of the money is created when a bank makes a loan - but the bank cannot make the loan b/c they don't have the currency to make the loan. The currency is made when the bank enters the credit in your account.
You cannot make a loan unless you have the cash to make the loan and the banks don't until you create the cash - 'a promissory note shall be treated as cash' - the bank simply enters that credit in your account and 'says' they lent you the currency - but they didn't have the currency to lend so that isn't true.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-is-money-created

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by sixgun

[Wonger]

14 hours ago, TheApe said:

I realize its happened before. I'm not saying it cant happen.

I like to think put probabilities on things. The stock markets crashing 90% in near future is almost impossible in my opinion. 

I could easily see a scenario were the stock market continues to rise while economies and people suffer even more.

 

It would certainly be quite the spectacle though.

 

The demand for the $ will cause liquidation of $ denominated assets because this demand is driven by Debt obligations denominated in $ which are higher than asset valuations denominated in $, any flows into $ denominated assets will be simply overwhelmed by this liquidation demand as recently happened, but this was just a warm up for whats coming😉 

[Wonger]

10 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Banks don't lend currency. When you use a credit card you create a promise the bank buys from you, when you sign the car loan, there is the asset the bank buys, when you take out a mortgage application, there is the promissory note. A promissory note shall be treated as cash. These are instruments with a yield which the bank buys and often then sells. The bank enters a credit in your account with which the house, car, tank of petrol is bought.
This is how currency is made. The High Street banks create the vast majority of the currency. It is created on the fly with a credit card. They do not lend currency - they buy the financial assets their customers create. They create currency when they enter the credit in the customer's account.

The Bank of England says that most of the money is created when a bank makes a loan - but the bank cannot make the loan b/c they don't have the currency to make the loan. You cannot make a loan unless you have the cash to make the loan and the banks don't until you create the cash - 'a promissory note shall be treated as cash' - the bank simply enters that credit in your account and 'says' they lent you the currency - but they didn't have the currency to lend so that isn't true.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/how-is-money-created

And there has to be "offer and consideration" for a legal contract, the Bank did not have this Currency to offer pre contract (because its only created post contract) therefore the Bank is in breach and the contract is not lawful and can not be pursued under law!     

[TheApe]

6 minutes ago, Wonger said:

The demand for the $ will cause liquidation of $ denominated assets because this demand is driven by Debt obligations denominated in $ which are higher than asset valuations denominated in $, any flows into $ denominated assets will be simply overwhelmed by this liquidation demand as recently happened, but this was just a warm up for whats coming😉 

This is an opinion, I think what makes you look silly (and possibly trolling) is you state it likes its a fact. No offense, but experienced people know that there are no certainties, just probabilities. Smart people dont go all in on one scenario.

There are too many unkowns to draw 100 percent conclusions.

I am also starting to wonder why this discussion isnt carried out in the price thread as its really become a battle of the "Gold will go up" v the "Gold will go down" groups. Would be nice to see these discussions have some kind of rational thinking behind them and not just Wonger against the world😂

[sixgun]

The Fed is buying up everything in sight - they have said there is no limit to the number of dollars they can create - as assets come into the market the Fed will hoover them up.

[TheApe]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

The Fed is buying up everything in sight - they have said there is no limit to the number of dollars they can create - as assets come into the market the Fed will hoover them up.

Maybe the stock market is the new safe haven. It will go up forever after all😄

Edited June 5, 2020 by TheApe

[Wonger]

3 minutes ago, TheApe said:

This is an opinion, I think what makes you look silly (and possibly trolling) is you state it likes its a fact. No offense, but experienced people know that there are no certainties, just probabilities. Smart people dont go all in on one scenario.

There are too many unkowns to draw 100 percent conclusions.

I am also starting to wonder why this discussion isnt carried out in the price thread as its really become a battle of the "Gold will go up" v the "Gold will go down" groups. Would be nice to see these discussions have some kind of rational thinking behind them and not just Wonger against the world😂

How would you like me to express my opinion that I think Gold is going to drop to $385, shall I add lots of doubt or something so as not to offend you? 

[Wonger]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The Fed is buying up everything in sight - they have said there is no limit to the number of dollars they can create - as assets come into the market the Fed will hoover them up.

Why would the Banks (who own the Fed) not want to completely crash the financial system like they did in 1929?

[TheApe]

1 minute ago, Wonger said:

How would you like me to express my opinion that I think Gold is going to drop to $385, shall I add lots of doubt or something so as not to offend you? 

No sorry, thats not what I mean. I mean when someone states Gold will 100 percent fall to $385 they lose a lot of credibility. 

E.g. I have opinions on where gold will go. I have opinions on where the stock markets will go. But I am wise enough to know that the complete opposite could happen. 

I respect that you "think" Gold will go to $385. I cant respect the absolute nature of your posts. Can you acknowledge that you could be wrong?

 

[Wonger]

5 minutes ago, TheApe said:

No sorry, thats not what I mean. I mean when someone states Gold will 100 percent fall to $385 they lose a lot of credibility. 

E.g. I have opinions on where gold will go. I have opinions on where the stock markets will go. But I am wise enough to know that the complete opposite could happen. 

I respect that you "think" Gold will go to $385. I cant respect the absolute nature of your posts. Can you acknowledge that you could be wrong?

 

Anyone can obviously be wrong, just look at the posts on here assuring $2000 Gold, reality check needed, its trading $1700!

And the Deflationary Tsunami is only just starting 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Wonger

[TheApe]

1 minute ago, Wonger said:

Anyone can obviously be wrong, just look at the posts on here assuring $2000 Gold, reality check needed, its trading $1700!

But can you acknowledge that you could be wrong? Do you count yourself in that anyone?