Does the recent price dip confirm....

[CadmiumGreen]

Oil is the new salt....regenerative energy is the new oil...long live the Silver Proof Stacker! Ok...maybe a bit too much scotch.  😜

[Roy]

Some say that you shouldn't drink alone but I find these to be the most enjoyable glasses you ever drain 😉

[CadmiumGreen]

5 minutes ago, Roy said:

Some say that you shouldn't drink alone but I find these to be the most enjoyable glasses you ever drain 😉

Love the overall camaraderie with The Silver Forum family!!😃    

[Derv]

Salt is important to life, in the right quantities. Minerals, electrolytes, preservatives, taste. Hence it's value I believe.

[silenceissilver]

12 hours ago, sixgun said:

If the uses and status of the metals remained constant then it is easy to compare. The argument being made by some is silver's status has declined. It was a monetary metal - it was in circulating coins until the 1960's and China was on a silver standard until 1935 i think. Now we are told it is not a monetary metal - it is an industrial metal and should be measured by a different yard stick.

I submit we change the name of this forum into industrial metals forum

[Darr3nG]

3 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

I submit we change the name of this forum into industrial metals forum

And start talking about the influence NIN and Rammstein have had on the genre  

[juansanto7]

20 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

They could all buy a silver coin or two but not a small gold coin.

There are 0.5 gram gold coins so price would be about £20 plus premium. So if you can afford £30 for 2 x 1 oz silver coins you probably can afford a 0.5 gram gold coin. If the demand for this 0.5 grams gold coin's would be there. The premium would be lower. There are countries like India where a bid percentage of the population is poor, however, they have a big tradition of buying gold (marriages, etc), same as for example European gypsies. That is one of the reasons India is one of the top countries buying gold year after year. IMHO if you can afford buy 2 silver coins then you can buy a small gold coin. The only problem is that in Europe in the last few decades people rather buy new cars , latest mobile phones and tablets, go out to restaurants, nightclubs, on holidays every year a few times per year and live above their means (debts) instead of buying gold. It keeps the economy going and it feeds the fat banker which received inflares bonuses even rewarding failures and who has to bail them out? We the tax payer. They don't even disclose who was the cause of the bailout or who benefited from tax payers bailout. It was only (I think) Iceland that took bankers to court and jailed them. And even that was keept quite anywhere else. Has anybody heard in the rest if Europe or in the USA any banker going to prison? I don't think so.

[Darr3nG]

4 minutes ago, juansanto7 said:

Has anybody heard in the rest if Europe or in the USA any banker going to prison?

Apparently 47 [source: https://ig.ft.com/jailed-bankers/]

[silenceissilver]

5 minutes ago, juansanto7 said:

There are 0.5 gram gold coins so price would be about £20 plus premium. So if you can afford £30 for 2 x 1 oz silver coins you probably can afford a 0.5 gram gold coin.

That is true of course but how small is it? Can you even grap it without tweezers? Or see the motive without loupe? I think most people would be afraid to lose it and rather go for one ounce silver coins. At least I came across the argument even for sovereign size coins, from someone not into PMs at all, when she asked me how she should save her money when I told her not to keep it in a savings account.

[HawkHybrid]

16 hours ago, sixgun said:

but there has to be one b/c there has been a silver supply deficit for 15 years or something similar as far as i am aware. 

 

there is no supply deficit for silver.

historically people have been able to extract silver and

gold from the ground at a ratio of 12-17:1.

do you really believe we are so incapable of doing it now

despite all the advances in technology?

it is gold that has been harder to mine. gold mines are

needing to dig more ore to extract the same toz of gold.

it used to be 2.5-3g/tonne mined. it's been falling steadily

to ~2g/tonne mined. this has not been the case for silver.

there is plenty of silver available to be mined and it doesn't

average cost any more to mine. miners choose to not mine

silver only mines because they can't sell the silver. instead

they choose to sell the silver they've mined as a by product.

there is a reason that a significant amount of silver comes

from the by product of other mining. it's because many

silver only mines are not profitable because they can't find

buyers. miners can mine another half a billion toz of silver.

they choose not to because they can't sell such an additional

quantity.

 

HH

[juansanto7]

7 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

Apparently 47 [source: https://ig.ft.com/jailed-bankers/]

Thanks for that,  I think I remember Bankia in Spain and other Spanish banks that were offering mortgages of 125% of property values, but I didn't know that any went to prison. I wasn't aware about Ireland neither, however 1 person in USA ( a trader and not a bank director) and 1 in Germany after Lehman Brothers, AIG, Godman Sachs and all the sub prime mortgages  scandal, and in Germany  (Hypo Real Estate)- Deutsche Bank, Unicredit, Deutsche Post, Commerzbank, etc , banks in the UK, France, etc and also insurance companies. We still don't know who received that all that bail out money ( ie who lend the money to the banks) .

[juansanto7]

1 hour ago, silenceissilver said:

how small is it

I think about 60% of a 5p coin. I can't say for sure. I haven't had a 5p coin in my hand for many years. 😂😂😂😂

[sixgun]

@HawkHybridIn a normally functioning market a low price would mean no-one wants the product enough to pay a higher price - there is no demand, there is too much etc etc. You have said before you don't accept there is (significant) market manipulation. If price gets dumped this is to make profit and this is the normal functioning of the market. 

Miners don't mine more b/c it isn't economic - the price is too low. You will say this is b/c no-one wants the silver and i will say this is b/c there is chronic price management to keep price low and keep sentiment depressed.

Miners could extract the 17.5 oz of silver for each 1 oz of gold they are extracting but it isn't economic. Not all silver is 'easy' to mine. They would go bust. Quite a number of silver miners were losing money when the price was at lower levels. [Quite a number of gold miners were also losing money.]
Some of this was b/c they had amassed too much debt in the good times (2011) and now at lower prices there wasn't enough profit - and this is completely true. Nevertheless they were losing money and selling the easier to mine silver, so going for lower yield ores was a nonstarter.

The whole topic revolves around the price and why the price is at the level it is. You have your views which logically lead to your conclusions - i can see that. i have my views which logically lead to another set of conclusions. 
That's it - we won't agree b/c the basis of our conclusions are so different - one day we might agree when one of us is proven wrong. 
If gold shot up to its truer value - well north of say $2000 and silver was languishing, even after the previously seen lag phase then you will have won the day. 

[HawkHybrid]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

Not all silver is 'easy' to mine.

 

why can't you see it that we are not incapable of mining

the silver that we historically we able to.  silver is easy to

mine. it has none of the increasing grade problems as

gold. if we managed 15:1 using the crude tech then we

can surely do it now. think about this. gold is increasingly

difficult to mine profitably yet we currently mine more

gold proportionally to silver as we've done historically.

there is no reason why we can't mine 15:1 on silver.

you have never provided any evidence at all that this is

currently impossible. it's actually very easy to mine

15:1 on silver but there are no buyers for the silver.

all miners need to do is re-open mines. increasing

silver supply is a doddle, it just takes a bit of time.

there is currently no use for the half a billion toz extra of

silver to make the ratio 15:1. don't you think some one

would notice a half billion toz deficit in physical silver?

 

we have everything we need to extract the extra half

billion toz of silver per year except a good enough

reason to do so. nobody wants it.

 

if you just look at the data without bias you can

conclude that it's simply that nobody wants so

much silver.

 

you fail to explain why if we have a use an extra

half billion toz of silver that nobody is missing it?

 

demand comes first. price and supply gets worked

out later. if there is demand for something you can 

bet that someone, somewhere is working out a way

to turn a profit on that demand. the price is not what

is important for the market to function. price fluctuates

and get worked out as needed.

 

HH

[Platinum]

Sixgun and HawkHybrid, you both got opinions that looks at this issue from two completely different angles and so it is unlikely you will be able to convince eachother of anything. 

Stick to and stack after your own opinion and leave the judgement to time.

[HawkHybrid]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

one day we might agree when one of us is proven wrong. 

 

this will never happen because it's already happened.

all the reasoning I've given that you failed to find

fault on shows this.

the multi decade gsr trend showing that silver has lost

out to gold over many decades is nothing because

your mind is too fixed to see that silver is losing it's

appeal. people don't want as much as 15:1 silver

anymore. obviously the whole world has to be wrong

and rigged for multi decades. as opposed to you

seeing that silver has simply lost the status that it

once had.

similar to seashells before it and salt, etc.

 

(what kind of proof are you waiting for? silver hasn't 

change in inflation adjusted price for decades. isn't

that people voting with their wallet to buy silver at the

same price they paid decades ago with inflation added

but no more?)

 

HH

[SilverGameOfThrones]

Good time ! Bubbles are popping . Panic. Uncertainty .Exactly when i want to buy BIG but its NOT a time yet . Physical Gold/Silver are NOT bubbles . Wait for the button . Then go BIG . Physical Gold to $2000+ Physical Silver to $20-25 by end of this year and infinity from the next year . Very Good Time For These Who Understand The Whole Picture ! 

Because when this pile of terrible DEBT eventually sinks, there going to be only things that float ,- THE PHYSICAL GOLD and SILVER , not a paper contracts digital garbage !!

[sixgun]

As pointed out HH and myself have opposing views - it all stems from what i see in the banking system and how they operate on the silver market. HH sees something else and concludes something else. 
The banking system masters still see silver as a currency - hence why silver is an FX currency (not a commodity) so the Bank of International Settlements runs a multi-billion dollar book on silver - they see it as a competitor in waiting for the dollar. 

Just a side theory - not all mine but i will put this into the mix.

The big banking entities - The Exchange Stabilisation Fund - the Fed's proxies - the BIS - they are all involved in the precious metals markets. This is b/c gold AND silver are currencies and they are rivals in waiting to the dollar. No reason otherwise for the BIS to trade silver unless it is a currency and a dollar rival working with gold.

Gold and silver must be suppressed so as to keep confidence in the dollar high.
When there is a smash with $billions of shorts dumped at market price into the market this is the banking entities in action. It breaches position limits, it is not sensible trading practice - it makes no trading sense unless the objective is to smash price and depress sentiment in the precious metals markets.

When gold and silver are getting smashed things are not good for the dollar. There is a problem - there is a fear especially gold will breakout. The likes of JP Morgan are doing it for profit b/c they have the fire power, they work with others and they know the Money Masters have their back. We have seen case after case of market malpractice to confirm this is going on. There is a big fine but a bigger prize, so they keep doing it and none of the head people ever go to jail.

So if gold (and silver) are getting smashed it does not mean there are weak - it means the dollar system is weak and this is a way to keep investors out of precious metals and in bonds and the dollar. The crash in stocks is also due to this - to flush cash into bonds and not gold. The Chinese indices are not crashing so the idea it is the coronavirus is bogus.

The silver market is tiny. Many a billionaire could buy all the silver in the world. It is a small - highly visible market and easy to control as long as you keep it in the doldrums. The gold market is much bigger, more opaque and much more difficult to control. So if the dollar system is deteriorating and precious metals are strengthening you will see this first in gold. Gold is harder to control. Silver is easy to control. The result is the GSR rises and rises. The silver price is kept low but the gold price rises as control is lost. A high GSR has been a sign of the precious metals market being about to breakout.

In 2008 we had the so called financial crisis - this would be a time when precious metals should shoot to the Sun and Moon. Price fell. The usual excuse was that traders were selling metals to cover losses on stocks. This is the same old tired excuse b/c we aren't going to hear the truth that the metals got slammed.

Control was  obviously wobbly in 2008 -  they have got to get control or their empire is lost - gold is harder to control - silver is easy to control - the GSR shoots up.

The situation is still very dodgy - plates are spinning - the Fed decides to crash interest rates and then starts QE. The Money Masters are really losing it. Precious metals start to look a safe bet. Gold starts the major phase of the bull run to the high in 2011. 

i say the Money Masters are really losing it b/c silver starts moving up as well - now the easier market to control slips from their grip - the GSR starts moving down as silver moves up faster than gold. Silver almost gets to $50 in 2011 - the market is running wild.

Then the silver price gets slammed really hard. Just like it did with the Hunt Brothers' high. Comex trading rules get changed and shorts positions get dropped like a squadron of B52's carpet bombing with Napalm. The GSR shoots back up - control has still not been achieved in the gold market and it is not until late 2012 that control is achieved and price is sent down until the low in December 2015.

The Money Masters see silver as money, as a currency - XAG would not exist otherwise and the BIS would not have a multi-billion dollar book it works with the LBMA to keep things under control. They have never really gained full control since 2008 - the GSR has kept climbing since the silver smash in 2011 - the USD -Treasury complex is disintegrating. We have had QE into the Repo market since last September. The wheels are coming off. When the wheels do come off expect to see XAG (silver currency) rising and rising faster than XAU. 

Even if you don't agree with me, it makes an interesting theory.

[Guest]

Human nature never, ever changes. The GSR hit a low of 31.60 in April 2011 so history generally repeats, silver stackers might want to sell when it hits that area again. That is all you need to know. Rule of thumb for me is for every ounce of gold have 50 of silver, if you are wrong what does it matter? Gold scoots up and you can sell silver for break-even or small loss or small profit but i'm betting 31.60 GSR hits again, when? Don't know and don't care.

[silenceissilver]

I don't get it why the both of you @HawkHybrid and @sixgun are focusing so much on how hard it is to mine silver. Obviously that's very important for the silver price but the whole point was why it didn't catch up with gold. As said before, we had gold rising a lot since last summer but no general perception of an economic crisis we had in late 2008 and thereafter. That's why silver didn't close the ratio to gold in the same way it did back then.  Very simple and immediately it has very little to do with how hard it is to mine silver or how much there is under the surface because people can immediately only buy what's above the ground already.

So the question how accessible silver under the ground is and how much there is, is relevant for the long term outlook of silver but it has very little to do with the original question, the way I understand it.

In the original question there was also talk of silver being smashed - I understand this as referring to the massive price drop of silver AND gold (insofar the question itself makes no sense, already). Well, both went up tremendously and down again. It was just a spike. If you bought two weeks ago (without looking up the charts but rather recently anyway) you have not lost anything. We merely saw a massive spike which to me is an indication the economy is becoming more volatile and the looming crisis is coming closer.  Is the original question referring to this spike? To the rise of gold since last summer? To silver being smashed after the highs at the financial crisis after 2008? In the this case - the financial crisis didn't materialize, to a great extent, and become a real life economic crisis. This was still avoided yet. (It's obvious the powers that should not be thought it not to be the strategically best point in time. First Europe had to be flooded with hostile migrants, censorship on social media had to be improved, etc but that's another topic. It's also obvious they want to have this crisis now, before the US election (see Soros' speech in Davos), with this fake pandemic and the fear they try to create around it)

[HawkHybrid]

it's only gold versus currency.

silver has nothing to do with this.

people link silver into this in order to sell it.

(people often forget copper used to be money,

cartwheel?)

 

HH

[sixgun]

@silenceissilver as i pointed out the issue is USD dominance. The Western financial system begins and ends with the USD. Gold is the anti-matter to the dollar. Silver runs alongside. They are real money and challengers to the USD. The banking cabal know this - which is why XAU and XAG are Forex currencies.

HH does not see it - but if silver were just another commodity there would not be XAG and the BIS would not run a multi-billion dollar book in silver. The Bank for International Settlements - the bank of banks isn't going to have a dedicated desk for gold AND silver in wheat, coffee, aluminium and whatever else. They deal in currencies and controlling the currencies markets. 

Can anyone answer why the Bank for International Settlements deals in XAG (silver currency) and there is the XAG at all?

So i agree the mining thing is so much background noise and distraction - all the silver in the world could single handedly be bought by quite a number of billionaires. It is what it is real money - a challenger to the dollar. Why would the BIS be interested in this silly little 'commodity'?
The US dollar is at the heart of the matter.

There is massive financial chaos - the problem started, not that it even went away, last summer - the not QE, QE of the Fed when it intervened with $billions in the Repo market, this started last September. It has not stopped - it cannot stop now. The dollar is being rejected more and more and more. Foreigners are not buying US bonds. The debt keeps climbing and the ESF is having to buy the bonds. Exponentially increasing QE will begin at some point, like a runaway train and then it will come off the rails. 

HH saves in gold - he will be alright. For all the wrong ideas i believe he has he has the right idea there.

[HawkHybrid]

59 minutes ago, bullionbob said:

if you are wrong what does it matter?

 

opportunity cost? people don't tie up resources

for the sake of it. they expect a competitive

return for making the manoeuvre.

 

HH

[Guest]

Spot on Sixgun, so have some gold, have some silver

[Darr3nG]

1 minute ago, bullionbob said:

Spot on Sixgun, so have some gold, have some silver

I couldn't get no silver, I couldn't get no gold...
To keep you from the gallows pole