Does the recent price dip confirm....

[goldking]

20 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

Edit: Not even in the UK everyone can afford a small gold coin. How many households don't have any savings whatsoever - is it one third? It's a considerable share of the people here, for sure. What about the welfare recipients - how many are there - a million, two millions, three millions? What about the people that get a tiny pension? They could all buy a silver coin or two but not a small gold coin.

For the vast majority,

1. number one importance is keeping up with the Jones's by having the very latest £1000+ iPhone and a £300/month brand new Audi 1.9 TDi in white sat on the driveway.  Not having any savings or pension is their choice.  No-one has forced them to debt themselves up to their eyeballs.

2. even if they had the money they wouldn't be spending it on gold.

 

[sixgun]

26 minutes ago, silenceissilver said:

I'm astonished no one has brought this up yet, so I will:

In the 2008 finanical crisis silver lagged behind gold, didn't it and now we only saw a massive rise of gold for a few days before it dropped again. So, there wasn't enough time for silver to catch up. And yes, gold rose a lot since last summer but there was no perception of a crisis, in the masses, thus naturally there were not a lot of additional silver buyers, if any.

The argument that everyone can afford a small gold coin - well, maybe in the UK but what about the poorer countries? For many there silver will be the only realistic option.

Personally, I have pretty much stopped buying silver but only because of the space it takes. I have enough silver already but not enough gold.

Edit: Not even in the UK everyone can afford a small gold coin. How many households don't have any savings whatsoever - is it one third? It's a considerable share of the people here, for sure. What about the welfare recipients - how many are there - a million, two millions, three millions? What about the people that get a tiny pension? They could all buy a silver coin or two but not a small gold coin.

i still buy bits of silver - mainly vintage stuff - interesting bars - interesting rounds. i have 'enough' and space is an issue. i am also concentrating on gold - the concentrated value is a bonus - i could have a pocket of gold coins and have a lot of value in that pocket.
Most people have no idea about gold and silver. It is not part of their lives. My mother views silver in a very different way and her mother would have been more than that. Silver is silver - it is value when it is a coin. It is much more affordable - now gold is getting out of the reach of many, even a 1/10th gold is a pretty price.

None of this will matter - the precious metals will back crypto - you are able to buy fractions of grams and spend them. Last night the Kinesis mobile app was released to the public. Both gold and silver are currency. Like Kinesis, other projects are moving forwards - some will adopt silver as well as gold - it is money now whatever anyone might say or think.

[Platinum]

I agree with you sixgun. Silver is money, just like gold, alas not presented at such. Nevertheless it is the market that decides what it shall be (not to say they are not brainwashed or manipulated into doing so), and right now silver is seen as an industrial metal. I expect this to change but until then I play by the mindset that folk don’t see it as money.

[goldking]

The confirmation bias is real.

[sixgun]

2 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I agree with you sixgun. Silver is money, just like gold, alas not presented at such. Nevertheless it is the market that decides what it shall be (not to say they are not brainwashed or manipulated into doing so), and right now silver is seen as an industrial metal. I expect this to change but until then I play by the mindset that folk don’t see it as money.

It is the bankster market that claims to decide by manipulation - sending the stock price of loss making companies which never made a profit to ridiculous levels and pounding the price of gold and silver - especially silver b/c it is a much smaller market and easy to control. The Chinese aren't bothered the price is as it is. They will carry on buying and then when they decide they will reset the prices and that will be the price.

[STONE]

5 hours ago, ChrisF said:

Does the recent price dip confirm silver is no longer a PM but an industrial metal?    No, thats like adding 2+2 and saying it equals a banana. Its always been a precious metal because of its rareity and also works well in industrial applications. A price fluctuation based on a comparison to a paper note that is in itself actual debt is ludicrious at best. Silver and gold ARE money, they are wealth because the intrinsic value is already established within itself.  Here is a quote from a gentleman from another forum:

 

 

People are suckers if they are buying gold and silver and VALUING that gold and silver in terms of worthless paper dollars, and who think they are losing when the dollar price of silver and gold go down.

 

A gold ounce 900 years ago is still a gold ounce today. The dollar price of gold and silver is IRRELEVANT. Gold and silver did not all of a sudden become valuable when America was born and the dollar was created.

 

Gold and silver are MONEY and are ASSETS. PERIOD.

 

I couldn’t care less about the silver and gold paper price slaughter this week.

 

To me that just proves how VALUABLE gold and silver really are that they are trying to push down the (irrelevant) paper price.

 

 

Despite gold rising to record highs during the coronavirus silver has tanked losing around 10% of its value in less that 7 days. No, it didnt lose any value. Again, how can you value something that has value against something that has no value?  

 

Productivity is dropping around the world, is this causing less need for silver hence the price drop? No, the perceived value drop happens everytime the stock market goes into a correction. Initially the SM drags down the price of PM's because stock holders are selling it to cover their margins. This happens everytime, soon after, gold and silver will diverge and the SM keeps plunging and PM's will rise as the sheeple flock to a safe haven.

 

 

 

[sixgun]

18 minutes ago, goldking said:

The confirmation bias is real.

Some people say silver is a has been - look the media says it is an industrial metal - it is not money - it is not of much value. People aren't interested. Look at the GSR - it keeps climbing decade after decade.
When they look in a particular direction that is what they will see.

Others have another view - they see the silver price smashed with financial news, they see JP Morgan stacking silver - for themselves or another isn't important. They see the BIS trading $100 billions of contracts in silver. They see nations stacking gold and when you look harder you can see are stacking silver. They see silver is a Forex currency traded in $billions. 
When they see that they have another view. 

i will say the second perspective is based on what is happening and not bankster propaganda through the control media. The first view is based on Western managed markets which are in the process of collapsing. 

Gold is 100% certain to be in the next paradigm. Silver is a vital industrial metal and the powers of the next paradigm also view it as money.

[STONE]

The stock market is losing value because of three things: The fed has been artificially pumping billions of dollars into it trying to keep it afloat.

Companies have been buying back their own stocks(with borrowed money) to keep the perceived value alive but in turn they have deflated the value of their companies buy taking on more debt. Debt added to debt does not increase the value of something. And lastly we are at least 5 years past what should have been a healthy correction because of artificial stimulation. Corrections are necessary. Delaying them only makes it worse.

[sixgun]

2 minutes ago, STONE said:

Productivity is dropping around the world, is this causing less need for silver hence the price drop?

Most of the silver comes as a byproduct of other mining - if other mining we to fall then so would production of silver and as we know the published stockpiles of silver continue to decline.

Silver is VITAL to modern life. The GSR coming out of the ground is supposed to 8:1 - it used to be nearer 15:1. The BIS is constantly managing the XAG price. JP Morgan is stacking massive amounts of silver. China and India import massive amounts. Silver mining production is declining - the stockpile is falling. 

BUT silver doesn't matter - don't look there - look over here. Move along, move along people nothing to see.

There are two camps of members and time will decide which is right. Hi ho Silver.

[goldking]

7 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Look at the GSR - it keeps climbing decade after decade.

If the GSR has relevance like you believe, please explain to me why the GSR yoyoed between 97:1 and 15:1 when the gold price was fixed.

[STONE]

7 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Most of the silver comes as a byproduct of other mining - if other mining we to fall then so would production of silver and as we know the published stockpiles of silver continue to decline.

Silver is VITAL to modern life. The GSR coming out of the ground is supposed to 8:1 - it used to be nearer 15:1. The BIS is constantly managing the XAG price. JP Morgan is stacking massive amounts of silver. China and India import massive amounts. Silver mining production is declining - the stockpile is falling. 

BUT silver doesn't matter - don't look there - look over here. Move along, move along people nothing to see.

There are two camps of members and time will decide which is right. Hi ho Silver.

Agreed, what you quoted from my post was actually a residual question from the original poster. Just wanted to clarify...

[sixgun]

15 minutes ago, goldking said:

If the GSR has relevance like you believe, please explain to me why the GSR yoyoed between 97:1 and 15:1 when the gold price was fixed.

The GSR is the XAU/XAG currency ratio on the FX market. It is a ratio of a currency pair. That's it. It is what it is. 
That it fluctuates does not make it any more or less relevant - it fluctuates like any currency pair.

Here is the USD/RUB price chart - it fluctuates - it is important b/c it enables you to see how many rubles you get to the dollar.

The GSR should perhaps be called the gold to silver currency ratio - but the usual suspects would not like that b/c people might start getting the wrong idea. 

ps: the most solvent economy in the world - with NO net debt - MASSIVE gold reserves, quite possibly bigger than China - this is Russia - what a joke - the USD has been created into infinity - 100's and 100's of trillions - worthless in the extreme. So much for real value in La La Land.
 

[ChrisF]

Some great responses, thank you all for giving your opinions.  Its good to have a bit of health debate. 😇

[sixgun]

5 minutes ago, STONE said:

Agreed, what you quoted from my post was actually a residual question from the original poster. Just wanted to clarify...

The truth is what it is - i agreed with your posting wherever it was sourced - my view is silver is the most undervalued asset in the world. A metal that is essential to modern life is thrown on municipal rubbish tips - it is utterly crazy - these days will be looked back on in disbelief but we are not there yet and so we bicker about it. 
Carry on stacking chaps - whether your poison is gold or silver or both - carry on regardless.

[STONE]

9 minutes ago, goldking said:

If the GSR has relevance like you believe, please explain to me why the GSR yoyoed between 97:1 and 15:1 when the gold price was fixed.

The GSR is just a tool, one of many. It keeps a perspective of the value or where the value should be based upon a comparison so when its out of whack you will know. Its not the end all be all of tools but just a tool. The GSR is like a level, how would I know if something is level unless I put a level on it??  Hyper focusing on one tool is like using a hammer to level something, wrong tool, wrong end result.

[STONE]

11 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The truth is what it is - i agreed with your posting wherever it was sourced - my view is silver is the most undervalued asset in the world. A metal that is essential to modern life is thrown on municipal rubbish tips - it is utterly crazy - these days will be looked back on in disbelief but we are not there yet and so we bicker about it. 
Carry on stacking chaps - whether your poison is gold or silver or both - carry on regardless.

Then we agree to agree! !🤣     Buy the dips gentlemen, enjoy the ride. Its about the journey not the destination... The true take away in this moment of time is I can take something that has no value(dollar) and trade it for something that is value(PM"s) While its true I initially work to get dollars, I trade them in for silver so my hard work retains its value throughout my lifetime and possibly into my childrens lifetime...

[Platinum]

13 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The truth is what it is - i agreed with your posting wherever it was sourced - my view is silver is the most undervalued asset in the world. A metal that is essential to modern life is thrown on municipal rubbish tips - it is utterly crazy - these days will be looked back on in disbelief but we are not there yet and so we bicker about it. 
Carry on stacking chaps - whether your poison is gold or silver or both - carry on regardless.

 But...what about Platinum?😢

[silenceissilver]

44 minutes ago, goldking said:

For the vast majority,

1. number one importance is keeping up with the Jones's by having the very latest £1000+ iPhone and a £300/month brand new Audi 1.9 TDi in white sat on the driveway.  Not having any savings or pension is their choice.  No-one has forced them to debt themselves up to their eyeballs.

2. even if they had the money they wouldn't be spending it on gold.

Yes, of course it is a choice (to a large extent) but the fact is, many cannot afford even a small gold coin, some of which not because they have to have the latest electronic plaything but because of a lack of sufficient income compared to their fixed costs.

When the clouds of the upcoming economic crisis will become visible to everyone, some of them will buy a few silver coins. Additionally, some of those who could afford small gold coins but effectively can't because of their life style will buy silver too when the crisis will arrive and silver won't have moved as much as gold yet. It happened about a decade ago, there is no reason why it wouldn't happen this time.

So, yes, even if those who could afford a small gold coin now had double their income they wouldn't buy gold now but when the crisis comes, some of them will and some of them will buy silver, too.

Last summer, when the gold price had just started to move up I was in a PM shop where someone wanted an ounce of gold and was offered a Krugerrand. He replied - "don't you have bars, I want something that is recognised worldwide, not a national coin". So he was clearly completly clueless about the physical gold market, had never bought bullion before but yet he wanted to jump on the bandwagon. And there was no mass perception of a crisis yet. It's only an anecdote but given what happened after 2008, it seems it's exmplary, also for silver.

48 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i still buy bits of silver - mainly vintage stuff - interesting bars - interesting rounds. i have 'enough' and space is an issue. i am also concentrating on gold - the concentrated value is a bonus - i could have a pocket of gold coins and have a lot of value in that pocket.

I haven't stopped buying silver for good, it's just not my focus. The last purchase was a few months ago, when I saw a few coins that interested me, at a fair I coincidentally bumped into.

[Robda1986]

I stack silver couple of reasons

1 Northern rock 

2 Cyprus 

3 Big Red Button (every time I'm told not to do something I wanna do it more) 

4 in the UK you pay something called a death tax on the value of your estate  (sick you can't even die without being taxed) can't tax what they can't see 

5 something is worth what someone will pay for it and I see silver being dirt cheep so I'll keep buying it 

6 Fiat currency is a load of B.S made by liers to control the masses from birth all through school its there as a marketing tool to keep people working till the day they die. If that makes me a tin hat so be it 

[HawkHybrid]

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

Silver is VITAL to modern life. The GSR coming out of the ground is supposed to 8:1 - it used to be nearer 15:1

the in ground available gsr is still 15:1.

(it's no miracle that nothing has changed in world

geology. small point but gold is actually harder

(more expensive in energy) to mine than before)

the actual mined gsr is closer to 9:1

why?

silver is currently significantly mined as a by product.

ie miners mine gold and they get a bonus of

some silver. as they have already mined it with the

gold they choose to sell it for whatever they can

get for it. how many major silver miners are there?

fresnillo owns a very large silver mine, they are 50%

gold by turnover. same with hocschild, but 40%

gold.

(hocschild has a recent closed mine ready to re-open

should the silver demand push the price up for it to

be profitable to do so. ie the silver is there to be mined,

but the demand for it is not there yet)

 

the reality is there's not enough silver demand to get

buyers for that extra 6 toz of silver for every 1 toz of

gold mined. silver miners are only able to sell 9 toz

profitably. so they only mine 9 toz of silver for every

1 toz of gold.

 

silver is vital for modern life but we only need 9 toz for

every toz of gold that is in demand.

(when was the last time industry slowed down due to

the lack of physical silver?)

 

HH

[HawkHybrid]

1 hour ago, Robda1986 said:

I stack silver couple of reasons

1 Northern rock 

2 Cyprus 

3 Big Red Button (every time I'm told not to do something I wanna do it more) 

4 in the UK you pay something called a death tax on the value of your estate  (sick you can't even die without being taxed) can't tax what they can't see 

6 Fiat currency is a load of B.S made by liers to control the masses from birth all through school its there as a marketing tool to keep people working till the day they die. If that makes me a tin hat so be it 

 

choose silver to speculate, for every other reason,

gold is probably better.

(gold does all of the points better than silver.

not point 5)

 

HH

[goldking]

2 hours ago, STONE said:

The GSR is just a tool, one of many. It keeps a perspective of the value or where the value should be based upon a comparison so when its out of whack you will know. Its not the end all be all of tools but just a tool. The GSR is like a level, how would I know if something is level unless I put a level on it??  Hyper focusing on one tool is like using a hammer to level something, wrong tool, wrong end result.

 

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

The GSR is the XAU/XAG currency ratio on the FX market. It is a ratio of a currency pair. That's it. It is what it is. 
That it fluctuates does not make it any more or less relevant - it fluctuates like any currency pair.

Here is the USD/RUB price chart - it fluctuates - it is important b/c it enables you to see how many rubles you get to the dollar.

The GSR should perhaps be called the gold to silver currency ratio - but the usual suspects would not like that b/c people might start getting the wrong idea. 

ps: the most solvent economy in the world - with NO net debt - MASSIVE gold reserves, quite possibly bigger than China - this is Russia - what a joke - the USD has been created into infinity - 100's and 100's of trillions - worthless in the extreme. So much for real value in La La Land.
 

Guys, I am not asking you what it is.  I know what it is.  I am asking you to explain to me why, WHEN THE GOLD PRICE WAS FIXED did the ratio to silver continue to move from one extreme to the other?  You cannot have it both ways.  You're using the current gold price as the reason for why silver is "undervalued", but when the gold price was fixed, the silver price - and by extension, the ratio as well - continued to see comparatively big movements either way, exactly the same as we've seen in the past 40 years since the end of the gold standard when the price was fixed.  Think about that for a second.  If the GSR is to be used as a metric for claiming that silver is undervalued compared to gold (or vv.), then the ratio needs to show historical evidence of this otherwise you're just making stuff up as your claims have no basis.

If the GSR had been a flat line prior to 1971 when the gold price was fixed, or at least only shown minimal fluctuations either way, then you'd have historical evidence to use for your argument today about silver being undervalued (or equally, gold being overvalued) because the ratio has changed from its historical norms.  But that is not the case.  The ratio between the two metals had absolutely no consistency whatsoever, even when one of them was a fixed price, moving between a 97:1 ratio in one direction and 15:1 ratio in the other.  The proof is right there https://www.macrotrends.net/1441/gold-to-silver-ratio.  Do you see a flat line anywhere  prior to 1971?  If you don't see a flat line then tells you 100% that the GSR is a completely meaningless metric for claiming what the price of what one metal should be based on the price of the other.  The line illustrates with absolutely no question that the price of gold has no bearing on the price of silver whatsoever (nor vice-versa) as the silver price moved up and down based on industrial demand, completely independent of gold whose price did not change.

I don't know how much clearer I can explain this for you to 'get it' but I fear I'm wasting my breath due to confirmation bias.  Gold price could go to $10k or even $1m per ounce, but if there's enough supply of silver as a by-product of copper, lead and zinc mining to meet industrial demand then the price will stay exactly where it is.

[Platinum]

The GSR was more important when silver was used as money. Today it is not.

Yet people like to point at it and its value IF we got the old system back.

[AgCoyote]

3 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

I'm astonished no one has brought this up yet, so I will:

In the 2008 finanical crisis silver lagged behind gold, didn't it and now we only saw a massive rise of gold for a few days before it dropped again. So, there wasn't enough time for silver to catch up. And yes, gold rose a lot since last summer but there was no perception of a crisis, in the masses, thus naturally there were not a lot of additional silver buyers, if any.

The argument that everyone can afford a small gold coin - well, maybe in the UK but what about the poorer countries? For many there silver will be the only realistic option.

Personally, I have pretty much stopped buying silver but only because of the space it takes. I have enough silver already but not enough gold.

 

Edit: Not even in the UK everyone can afford a small gold coin. How many households don't have any savings whatsoever - is it one third? It's a considerable share of the people here, for sure. What about the welfare recipients - how many are there - a million, two millions, three millions? What about the people that get a tiny pension? They could all buy a silver coin or two but not a small gold coin.

I think this is a critical point. It's also important to remember that gold rises before silver. I assume that the vast majority of the posters on this site are quite successful in their own lives. To have the intellectual curiosity to care about the monetary system and precious metals almost certainly puts your IQ above 120. The fact is that the masses do not have the foresight possessed here. Most don't have the resources either.

Even many with resources they should be looking to protect cant' be bothered to truly understand the vulnerability of the monetary system. My dad is a smart man but talking to him about the monetary system is like talking to a wall. He simply doesn't want to hear about it. He'll pontificate how well he's done with stocks. He equates gold/silver to simply being an investment which is only a small reason to be in metals.

While most of us can probably afford to accumulate gold or large amounts of silver, gold is certainly going to be out of reach for the vast majority especially once financial panic sets in and gold rises. Where else could they realistically turn? There's a reason silver is called the poor man's gold.

[Platinum]

It is easier to brainwash someone than make someone who is brainwashed realise that said person has been brainwashed.

In other words it will be like talking to a wall most of the time you interact with people who does not know about this. Or for the matter, care.

Most people do not care, and will not care, until it is burning at their own doorstep, and when that happens they cry out for help that had been offered to them which is no longer of any use for the fire is already there.