WOW! Reply from ROYAL MINT on a Freedom of information request!

[Serendipity]

21 minutes ago, 5huggy said:

Thats what "grips my nickers " @Serendipity - or more poignantly - troubles me - as to why such a simple thing (in their eyes) cannot be divulged!

SUSPICIOUS or what!? 

I’ll be honest with you @5huggy about the The Royal Mint without mincing my words. Their Lunar series has been totally uninspiring with so many change of engravers that I’ve lost count. The Queen’s Beasts series has been their one major hit. The young Jody Clark has done such a fantastic job of breathing fresh life into an old-fashioned institution that I honestly think the engraver deserves a knighthood. Not surprisingly, The Royal Mint has gone on the defensive again now that we’re in the last year of the Queen’s Beasts series. The Perth Mint takes chances which is why it’s one of the best Mints in the world. The Royal Mint needs to do the same and stop being defensive and conservative.

[5huggy]

TOO damn right @Serendipity - but how can a set of numbers for a "2018 (out of production) Valiant Coin" be seen as "commercially  sensitive" - is beyond me!

I bet Kellogg's can tell you how many boxes of "cornflakes " they produce daily weekly monthly yearly - and Nabisco et al really crucify them NOT!

Just seems PATHETICALLY stupid to hide (or at least try to dissuade) a mintage of what is in effect YESTERYEAR goods!

If this was a general rule this book would NEVER have been produced! - - - > >>

[Melon]

1 hour ago, 5huggy said:

Thats what "grips my nickers " @Serendipity - or more poignantly - troubles me - as to why such a simple thing (in their eyes) cannot be divulged!

SUSPICIOUS or what!? 

I'm interested in the suspicious element, because I just don't get what could be considered suspicious about this. 

Let's assume they reply to your request with the mintage numbers exactly as you requested. What number could they give you that would make you feel they had suspicious intent in withholding the numbers originally?  

 

[Pampfan]

@Melon I think you are missing the whole point. I already got the mintage numbers and nothing happened. The fact they are withholding the mintage numbers now with their “reasoning” doesn’t make sense. They are creating the environment which they say they are protecting the buyer against. 
Who even gives a $&@? About the mintage numbers - it is just bullion that should be worth spot! There is no collectors value, according to the mint. 
That being said - let’s all live with our heads in the sand and not try to find out if they minted 22,500 or 18,000 or even 3,000. 
There is a lot of back story to the queens Beast mintages  that happened on the forum that prompted all this back in 2017 -  so the newer members unless they research it - might not understand what all the hoopla is about. 



 

[Melon]

18 minutes ago, Pampfan said:

@Melon I think you are missing the whole point. I already got the mintage numbers and nothing happened. The fact they are withholding the mintage numbers now with their “reasoning” doesn’t make sense. They are creating the environment which they say they are protecting the buyer against. 
Who even gives a $&@? About the mintage numbers - it is just bullion that should be worth spot! There is no collectors value, according to the mint. 
That being said - let’s all live with our heads in the sand and not try to find out if they minted 22,500 or 18,000 or even 3,000. 
There is a lot of back story to the queens Beast mintages  that happened on the forum that prompted all this back in 2017 -  so the newer members unless they research it - might not understand what all the hoopla is about. 
 

I’m not missing the point. Previously they decided to release them, by the sounds of it by the actions of one man. Now they’ve decided not to. So what? Change happens. 

I’m not sure how you can possibly know whether releasing the mintage figures had an impact. 

In fact on this very thread we see it did apparently have an impact on people. Quote; ”They are pretty coins however, the mintage figures were an influencing factor for me.  Very high prices relative to the mintage figures- I have flipped all of mine.”

The fact remains I don’t think you or I have any right to this information. It’s up to the company to decide, and if people don’t like the decision they can of course vote with their feet and take their business elsewhere. I think this is an abuse of FOI. A company making a decision to not release mintage numbers on a product they produce is their business. There is no legitimate public interest. A few folk on a forum getting annoyed for the sake of it does not constitute public interest in my opinion. 

[Serendipity]

Needless to say, The Royal Mint will probably backtrack on its reservations about releasing the mintage figures for the Queen’s Beasts bullion series once books start to emerge on the popular series like “The Gold Sovereign.” I’ve mentioned elsewhere that The Royal Mint will have a tough act to follow once the series concludes this year. If any of the forum members out there have ever thought about writing a book about coins then this might be the best time. I once jokingly created a fictitious Queen’s Beasts book topic I think and was taken aback by the response.

[5huggy]

5 hours ago, Melon said:

I'm interested in the suspicious element, because I just don't get what could be considered suspicious about this. 

Let's assume they reply to your request with the mintage numbers exactly as you requested. What number could they give you that would make you feel they had suspicious intent in withholding the numbers originally?  

 

ANY number buddy - because that would IMMEDIATELY raise the question - "Why the original dissuasion?"

As a government owned (HMRC) entity - They are legally required to submit AUDITED ACCOUNTS! (Ha yes to themselves! - WTF)

To be able to do this, they have to have the "NUMBERS" of ALL products produced available for said accounting!

My suspicions are, that they are in collusion - with Government, LBMA  et  al, for the suppression of information that could REVEAL the TRUE STATE of PM fundamentals and PRICE discovery of a true "FREE MARKET"!

NO ONE can convince me that PM suppression has NOT been occurring on the PM (paper market)

Because I have a substantial set of figures derived from "DAILY" ,yes daily,  Data captures for the last 7 years - 

I am "MORE THAN HAPPY" with my derived analysis from what "I SEE" - cant do that if its "HIDDEN"!!

 

The Royal Mint is a government-owned mint that produces coins for the United Kingdom. Operating under the name Royal Mint Ltd, the mint is a limited company that is wholly owned by Her Majesty's Treasury and is under an exclusive contract to supply all the nation's coinage.

[Stuntman]

Personally, I couldn't really give two hoots about the resale value of these coins (over and above their intrinsic metal value).  I bought them because I liked them, and I'm genuinely interested in finding out how many were minted.  Just as I am interested to find out the mintage figures for any coins I have bought, whether circulating, bullion or proof, or whether (for UK coins) decimal or predecimal.

To @goldkingand @Melon - I understand and respect your point of view, but not everyone who buys these coins has their eyes firmly fixed on profits.  It may play a part, but it certainly isn't the main driver for me.  Particularly for the gold coins - I buy them if I like the design, and then shop around to find a dealer with the lowest premium and try to get it for less than a particular target price.

 

[ChrisSilver]

I will speculate that they either didn't sell enough and therefore don't want people to know, or that they sold too many and forgot to count them all  

[sovereignsteve]

I think the mint is getting sensitive to the fact that people are making more money out of their designs than they are. They are jealous and they resent the fact. The only commercial interest after the fact is that it highlights that people can make a profit out of the lower mintage issues. These are bullion coins and the Mint doesn't want people to regard them as collectable. We as collectors, should be buying their proof issues instead.

They are inept and often get their issue mintages wrong. The gold Una must be killing them😂

[5huggy]

25 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

I will speculate that they either didn't sell enough and therefore don't want people to know, or that they sold too many and forgot to count them all  

 

7 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I think the mint is getting sensitive to the fact that people are making more money out of their designs than they are. They are jealous and they resent the fact. The only commercial interest after the fact is that it highlights that people can make a profit out of the lower mintage issues. These are bullion coins and the Mint doesn't want people to regard them as collectable. We as collectors, should be buying their proof issues instead.

They are inept and often get their issue mintages wrong. The gold Una must be killing them😂

Both you guy's comments are damn good and VERY reasonable -put both together - could be the VERY REASON! 👍😉👏

[5huggy]

FROM here - -  https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/

 

The Royal Mint is a government owned company. We are committed to providing a financial return to the UK government in line with agreed targets.

The Royal Mint's Chief Executive is Anne Jessopp.

With more than 1,000 years of experience, The Royal Mint is planning for organic growth and sustainable profits.

[Pampfan]

8 hours ago, Melon said:

I’m not missing the point. Previously they decided to release them, by the sounds of it by the actions of one man. Now they’ve decided not to. So what? Change happens. 

I’m not sure how you can possibly know whether releasing the mintage figures had an impact. 

In fact on this very thread we see it did apparently have an impact on people. Quote; ”They are pretty coins however, the mintage figures were an influencing factor for me.  Very high prices relative to the mintage figures- I have flipped all of mine.”

The fact remains I don’t think you or I have any right to this information. It’s up to the company to decide, and if people don’t like the decision they can of course vote with their feet and take their business elsewhere. I think this is an abuse of FOI. A company making a decision to not release mintage numbers on a product they produce is their business. There is no legitimate public interest. A few folk on a forum getting annoyed for the sake of it does not constitute public interest in my opinion. 

All good @Melon. I see your point.

I also flipped all mine but for a different reason - I had them all graded 70 by ngc. I saw how many ngc kept grading and  the pop of 70 coins kept going up. So thanks to that knowledge - I made my decision to sell them.
My only point to all this that as a collector and buyer of any coins - I believe you need to do your due diligence to yourself and get as much info as you can to make a decision. That being said - a freedom of information act law - allowed me to get information. So I got the information. 
I don’t see the problem in someone trying to get the information.

 

[Melon]

5 hours ago, 5huggy said:

ANY number buddy - because that would IMMEDIATELY raise the question - "Why the original dissuasion?"

So if they don’t answer they’re suspicious. If they do answer regardless of the number they are suspicious. I feel bad for the poor mint, they lose every way apparently! 

4 hours ago, Stuntman said:

To @goldkingand @Melon - I understand and respect your point of view, but not everyone who buys these coins has their eyes firmly fixed on profits.  It may play a part, but it certainly isn't the main driver for me.  Particularly for the gold coins - I buy them if I like the design, and then shop around to find a dealer with the lowest premium and try to get it for less than a particular target price.

I agree not everyone is in it for profit, but not everyone wants to know the mintage numbers either. The fact remains that if it’s not public interest (and I believe it’s not) then it’s up the mint to decide. We as consumers can vote with our feet and not buy from them if we don’t like it. 

1 hour ago, Pampfan said:

All good @Melon. I see your point.

I also flipped all mine but for a different reason - I had them all graded 70 by ngc. I saw how many ngc kept grading and  the pop of 70 coins kept going up. So thanks to that knowledge - I made my decision to sell them.
My only point to all this that as a collector and buyer of any coins - I believe you need to do your due diligence to yourself and get as much info as you can to make a decision. That being said - a freedom of information act law - allowed me to get information. So I got the information. 
I don’t see the problem in someone trying to get the information.

I agree - absolutely use the information available to you to make an informed decision. But your own example shows just how much the mintage numbers could affect behaviours, so I understand why the mint may choose to not release that data. 

My only point really is that strong arming a company into releasing figures that are not really in the public interest through a FOI feels like an abuse. By all means ask, but the nature of this thread has gone beyond asking to trying to force by finding loopholes. IMO. 

[motorbikez]

4 hours ago, Stuntman said:

Personally, I couldn't really give two hoots about the resale value of these coins (over and above their intrinsic metal value).  I bought them because I liked them,  

 

Absolutely the best reason to buy a coin as a collector. If you like it buy it.

[5huggy]

12 hours ago, Melon said:

The fact remains I don’t think you or I have any right to this information.

 

4 hours ago, 5huggy said:

The Royal Mint is a government owned company.

ERGO - "the government of the PEOPLE" are duty bound --  to SERVE the people and as such "SHOULD BE OPEN and HONEST"!

Just don't LOSE SIGHT of the FACT!  - -they WORK FOR US!! 

The  bench,  with adviser @zhoutonged , is retiring  to deliberate "SENTENCE|"  M'luds! 😉

[Pampfan]

I wonder if we can get a lawyer and sue the mint for the information?

I will do some research - maybe we can ask the queen for some help on this, her portrait is on every coin - surely she must be privy to mintage numbers. (No pun intended)

[Melon]

2 hours ago, zhoutonged said:

Donning my armchair Barrister wig for a moment...

Judge @5huggy  presiding.

I put it to you members of the Silver forum The Royal Mint are not a private company. And such are clearly obliged to comply with FOI legislation. 

It is not for Mr McDade to invent his own custom definition in these matters.

I rest my case M'lud, members of the forum.

 

1 hour ago, 5huggy said:

ERGO - "the government of the PEOPLE" are duty bound --  to SERVE the people and as such "SHOULD BE OPEN and HONEST"!

Just don't LOSE SIGHT of the FACT!  - -they WORK FOR US!! 

The  bench,  with adviser @zhoutonged , is retiring  to deliberate "SENTENCE|"  M'luds! 😉

 

54 minutes ago, Pampfan said:

I wonder if we can get a lawyer and sue the mint for the information?

I will do some research - maybe we can ask the queen for some help on this, her portrait is on every coin - surely she must be privy to mintage numbers. (No pun intended)

 

[DaKine]

As per my earlier post, I don't see in the end how it matters a hill of beans as to what the actual numbers are. There should be no secrets, that is information that should be ours to use or not as we choose. We do not need government to determine even mundane matters such as this.

The US Mint have been releasing mintages for more than 30 years, and it looks that Eagle sales have done rather well both in terms of "special" issues and the run of the mill bullion pieces.

Please note that the platinum bullion one ounce Britannias were announced as 5,000 mintage for 2018 and 2019 (don't know about the 2020).