Jump to content
  • The above Banner is a Sponsored Banner.

    Upgrade to Premium Membership to remove this Banner & All Google Ads. For full list of Premium Member benefits Click HERE.

  • Join The Silver Forum

    The Silver Forum is one of the largest and best loved silver and gold precious metals forums in the world, established since 2014. Join today for FREE! Browse the sponsor's topics (hidden to guests) for special deals and offers, check out the bargains in the members trade section and join in with our community reacting and commenting on topic posts. If you have any questions whatsoever about precious metals collecting and investing please join and start a topic and we will be here to help with our knowledge :) happy stacking/collecting. 21,000+ forum members and 1 million+ forum posts. For the latest up to date stats please see the stats in the right sidebar when browsing from desktop. Sign up for FREE to view the forum with reduced ads. 

WOW! Reply from ROYAL MINT on a Freedom of information request!


5huggy

Recommended Posts

MAKE of this what you will people!! 

Screams "SECRECY" to me!!! 

A forum member asked about this and I threw in my effort to ascertain the numbers!

MY reaction - WTF! - 2018 Valiant NO LONGER in PRODUCTION!!!

My request = - - - > > 

To: FOI <FOI@royalmint.com>
Subject: Mintage Figures for 2018 SILVER BULLION

 

I would like to ascertain what the Mintage Figures for 2018 SILVER BULLION

Specifically the 2018 Valiant series please

 

THE Royal Mint Response received tonight! - -     >> 

23 January 2020

 

 

Dear Mr Taylor

 

We refer to your email of 24 December 2019 where you request the mintages for 2018 silver bullion coins.

Although we hold information within the scope of your request we are withholding this information pursuant to section 43 of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

 

Section 43 FOIA – Commercial interests

 

It is our view that the release of information in respect of mintage figures for bullion coins would be likely to prejudice the commercial interests of the Royal Mint as well as the market and end customers for these coins generally.

 

Core bullion products (e.g. Queens Beast, Sovereign and Britannia) do not have mintages, certainly not in the sense that we do with commemorative coins. Instead the production figures are solely determined by market/customer demand. Declaring production/sales figures on these coins has the potential to impact sales and falsely inflate the prices in the bullion market. For example, if the production/sales figure is considered to be low then the product could be viewed as a rare/collectible item and in these cases many retailers increase their prices. This causes confusion as to the distinction between core bullion products and commemorative/collectible items. There is then the clear potential to negatively impact the end customer as they could end up paying more for a bullion product than a sum which is representative of a market value based primarily on its metal content. It could also impact negatively on our numismatic business as these products are sold in that team too.

 

We note that our stance in this regard is just the same as with many other Mints (e.g. the Royal Canadian Mint) whom do not declare mintage figures for bullion coins, but do for commemorative coins in accordance with their publication schemes.

 

Section 43 is of course a qualified exemption so we are obliged to carry out a public interest test. We would see no public interest in disclosure of this information having regard to the clear potential harm to the commercial interests of The Royal Mint as well as the market and end customers for these coins generally. 

 

If you are dissatisfied with the handling of your request, you have the right to ask for an internal review. Internal review requests should be submitted within two months of the date of receipt of the response to your original letter and should be addressed to:

Mr Martin McDade

Finance Director

Royal Mint

Llantrisant

Pontyclun

CF72 8YT

Question!?  - - Should I go and chase further - "WE" the FORUM, are PUBLIC interested! are we NOT???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply
36 minutes ago, 5huggy said:

Section 43 is of course a qualified exemption so we are obliged to carry out a public interest test. We would see no public interest in disclosure of this information having regard to the clear potential harm to the commercial interests of The Royal Mint as well as the market and end customers for these coins generally. 

...I would be pretty interested in knowing - they must have a limit as items go out of stock on their bullion site all the time never to reappear.  

I wonder how transparent a department owned by the Treasury would be on a internal review 😂 

Interesting response it kind of seems to me that they want to blind you with language or lose you in context! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Playing devil's advocate here, but personally I agree with their stance, from a business owner angle.  Put yourselves in their shoes : would you disclose the mintage and likely lose business just to satisfy a few nosey coin collectors whose only objective is to buy up the entire market and flip it for huge personal gain, depending on how big or small the mintage is? ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Royal Mint can't have it both ways, though.  Their reasoning is disingenuous in my opinion.

They are implying that the core bullion coins (including Queen's Beasts) shouldn't be viewed as collectables, whilst at the same time they are currently offering different bullion coins in the same series for significantly different prices on their own website.  Example: Lions and Griffins are offered for sale at much higher prices than Yales and White Lions.

I think most stackers, never mind most collectors, would be interested in obtaining the mintage figures just for reference anyway.  There's definitely a public interest right there.

After all, the Royal Mint continues to publish mintages for circulating coins, and (of course) the secondary market value can change accordingly.  Kew Gardens, Jemima Puddle Duck etc etc.  That's always been the case for circulating coins, certainly since the early 19th century!  They aren't intended to be collectables either...

I call hypocrisy.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol @5huggy didn’t think they’d fool you! 

8 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

They are implying that the core bullion coins (including Queen's Beasts) shouldn't be viewed as collectables, whilst at the same time they are currently offering different bullion coins in the same series for significantly different prices on their own website.  Example: Lions and Griffins are offered for sale at much higher prices than Yales and White Lions.

Totally agree, @Stuntman 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 5huggy said:

Section 43 is of course a qualified exemption so we are obliged to carry out a public interest test

Off shortly to do "DUE DILIGENCE" - and potentially (after the homework) - Give the Royal mint a TEST!! 😉👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst bullion coins are just that, what’s stopping them being ‘collectible’ just about anything can be collectible from coins to bottle tops and said prices are a-tuned to availability and demand. If it can be collected then it is collectible. If a coin bullion or otherwise is discontinued then RM should unequivocally publish the production numbers, shame on their part that they do not understand a core part of their market ‘collectors’.

And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1178/commercial-interests-section-43-foia-guidance.pdf

which section are they denying under above link to ICO they do not specify therefore my personal advice reply and copy the ICO as that constitutes a flat refusal without substance or justification.

But hey ho as you would say bro...... What duz i NOSE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Magritte said:

Whilst bullion coins are just that, what’s stopping them being ‘collectible’ just about anything can be collectible from coins to bottle tops and said prices are a-tuned to availability and demand. If it can be collected then it is collectible. If a coin bullion or otherwise is discontinued then RM should unequivocally publish the production numbers, shame on their part that they do not understand a core part of their market ‘collectors’.

Damn Right buddy! 👍

So I think "WE" - I WILL TEST Them -

for and behalf of the FORUM MEMBERS THAT ADD COMMENTS TO THIS THREAD

WHAT gets me, is it is after all  (NO OFFENCE members) -

a lousy bullion OVERPRICED (read- premium) discontinued coin of unique size and weight - so it should be reportable figure for HMRC at the very least! 

WONDER if I should really put "CAT among the PIGEONS" 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, ittle5huggy said:

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1178/commercial-interests-section-43-foia-guidance.pdf

which section are they denying under above link to ICO they do not specify therefore my personal advice reply and copy the ICO as that constitutes a flat refusal without substance or justification.

But hey ho as you would say bro...... What duz i NOSE

CHEERS Bro - reduced my HOMEWORK search - knew you were good fer summit!! 😉

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, 5huggy said:
8 minutes ago, ittle5huggy said:

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1178/commercial-interests-section-43-foia-guidance.pdf

which section are they denying under above link to ICO they do not specify therefore my personal advice reply and copy the ICO as that constitutes a flat refusal without substance or justification.

But hey ho as you would say bro...... What duz i NOSE

CHEERS Bro - reduced my HOMEWORK search - knew you were good fer summit!! 😉

Mummy said don't worry son tuthers will be glad i popped you out 🤣

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so to get serious again https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1183/the_public_interest_test.pdf

under this section it gives them basically a COP out clause ........... haven't read all yet but will find a method.... I do believe if enough members submit a similar or same request they can not use it as a deflection as clearly there is "public interest"  PLEBS OF THE WORLD UNITE 😀

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The public interest argument is just not right. The Perth Mint sells bullion coins that at their outset have unlimited mintages and then publishes actual mintage levels when they cease production for that year. I don’t understand why the Royal Mint can’t do the same. 

See the link below to my coin dedicated YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC32DEmDzkaZCBTBVTDiYr0A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They must have minted a load of the 2018 10 ounce silver Valiant coins, the Royal Mint not only still have them in stock, they have enough of them available for people to order 50+ at a time, and buying a single 2018 10 ounce silver Valiant coin is still comparable in price to both the 2019 version as well as the newest 10 ounce release from the Queens Beast series, and I don't just mean the prices that the Royal Mint sells their coins for, but also sellers like Silver Trader - I believe that there is less than £20.00 difference in price between the cost of the 2019  and 2018 10 ounce silver Valiant coin or the lastest 1 or 2 10 ounce Queens Beasts coins from any seller that has these coins in stock for sale.

 

Royal Mint 2018 10 ounce Silver Valiant Coin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have submitted FOIs to the RM before and received responses confirming mintages. The response you have had has come from somewhere (where?) and references their finance director. A bit bizarre because your question was about mintages, not finances. You need to address your questions to their legal counsel. I will PM you his email address.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, CoinStruck said:

The public interest argument is just not right. The Perth Mint sells bullion coins that at their outset have unlimited mintages and then publishes actual mintage levels when they cease production for that year. I don’t understand why the Royal Mint can’t do the same. 

Yeah TOO  Right buddy - the RM HIDE behind (as does MOST of these HIGHER organisations) DO! the regulations

as @ittle5huggy has alluded to - A COP OUT CLAUSE!

HOWEVER -  WE the people can OVERTURN this -!

I want to "TEST" them!

minions handshake GIF

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is lunacy. The US Mint has made eagles in gold and silver for 34 years and releases mintages routinely, although sometimes there is a bit of lag.

That verbiage in their response is IMHO a load of poppycock. Who are they to determine what collectors do with the coins they get? Mint the coins to demand and stop at the end of the year and then report the next year if you are lazy - or week by week if you are not!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Cookies & terms of service

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. By continuing to use this site you consent to the use of cookies and to our Privacy Policy & Terms of Use