Storage

[martysov]

Big question. Where do you store it all? Safe at home or safety storage box?

 

If a safe, what is a good one? I don't have a big house or anywhere i could safely put a safe, so what the best option?

[GoodAsGold]

I use a safe deposit facility for storage. It’s in a convenient location for me and it rents out various size boxes at different prices. Your own location mightn’t work out for you though in respect of this.

If you googled Glasgow Vaults for example the website’s home page shows you the company locations in the UK and Ireland (you can select another location if there’s one which interests you). The name differs slightly in Edinburgh as Edinburgh Vaults is a tourist attraction and nothing to do with the safe deposit facility. The company website is very detailed and should answer any questions you may have.

[Chorlton]

Another additional suggestion is don't tell anyone you have it or show it to anyone.

[pricha]

Safe deposit box if the collection is large. You'd still have to buy insurance and you wouldn't want to travel too far to access the gold. Firms Like Hatton Garden metals will store it for you for a fee. If you sell it back to them you'd might never actually see the coins. 

If storing  at home then Chorltons advice is the best. Keep quiet. On the other hand someone needs to know the hiding place , incase you unfortunately drop dead. 

You can buy cheapish safes which you can bolt to the floor and use as a decoy. Just to keep petty cash and the odd sovereign in transit.  After that a fireproof box and a hiding place behind a wall or under the floorboards. 

Edited May 25 by pricha

[Bratnia]

Bullion Vault charge https://www.bullionvault.co.uk/help/QuickStart.html 0.01%/month, $4 min vaulting charge that includes insurance

Trading/moving between vaults might be seen as being £240/year and 0.1% thereafter per trade cost, so 0.2% for instance to move gold from say Singapore to London. Actually applied as 0.5%/trade cost on the first $75,000 of trade value of each year, 0.1% thereafter. With additional costs you can withdrawal physical gold. Spreads vary https://www.bullionvault.co.uk/order-board.do for example recently to move some gold from Singapore to London 

and that's a sell at 1835.32, buy at 1835.73

For longer term holdings you might prefer to self insure. A single brick/bar (400oz) is close to £750,000 value recently and its pretty easy to hide that somewhere, or coins sealed in a plastic tube buried in a private back garden or concealed within the property etc. Security through obscurity - if no one knows you buy/hold gold then its very unlikely that someone will come around and dig up your back garden. If you buy a safe then its a flag wave that you have valuables that you intend to store in that safe, potentially attracts unwanted interest. In Victorian times when Sovereigns were money people tended to hide them around different hiding places, for instance much furniture of those times included secret compartments.

Be mindful of where you buy from/sell to as nowadays you're expected to provide proof of ID, name, address etc. which is a serious security risk/flaw IMO. Keep/store only a little gold at that address.

[martysov]

I want to be able to touch and see the gold. So having it in London is no good for me. However somewhere close, or like you say hiding it somewhere is good. I won't be keeping it at my property,  it's just a question of where to put it though

[Thelonerangershorse]

2 minutes ago, martysov said:

I want to be able to touch and see the gold. So having it in London is no good for me. However somewhere close, or like you say hiding it somewhere is good. I won't be keeping it at my property,  it's just a question of where to put it though

I'm sure there are plenty of people here who will offer to hold on to it for you.

[pricha]

I tend to buy only on the forum. As its cheaper and I can use an address that's not my home address. No proof of ID needed etc.  Id worry about dealers storing my home address on their computers. They dont post to a address not on the card generally speaking. I certainly don't buy vast amounts in one go to bother with that. EBay is dodgy as I use my work address but they still give the buyer my home information i think.  Set up an alarm and camera at you home as they are cheap enough . Gold or no gold you should have these anyway.  It all depends what you have. Proofs in boxes would be a nightmare. Graded coins you'd like to keep at home and admire them. Bullion you can dump in a safe deposit box and forget about them or split them up around the house. 

[Bratnia]

As ever, concentration risk is a major risk factor. If you have perhaps a third of your total retirement wealth in two homes in two different countries, a third in stocks spread across multiple brokers/stock index funds, a third in gold that is split three ways, maybe physical coins, a gold ETF, bullionvault or suchlike ... then even the total loss of one element is little different (often less) than what the portfolio value can naturally move through in any one year. A 11% portfolio hit after your home was burgled and each and every coin hidden around the home was found and stolen because they'd found/seen your X marks the spot(s) map - not a financially fatal event, even less so if only half of the coins were found/stolen.

[Bratnia]

21 minutes ago, pricha said:

I tend to buy only on the forum. As its cheaper and I can use an address that's not my home address. No proof of ID needed etc. 

Oooo. At risk of theft by the greatest of all thieves ... HMRC. Without proof/audit trail a home raid that discovered gold could not only have that gold being confiscated but also any other assets ... under the pretext of being gains of illicit activities - guilty until you might prove otherwise.

[pmbug]

I keep a good bit in my gun safe.  But I'm in the USA, so this might not be a practical option for you.

[pricha]

57 minutes ago, Bratnia said:

Oooo. At risk of theft by the greatest of all thieves ... HMRC. Without proof/audit trail a home raid that discovered gold could not only have that gold being confiscated but also any other assets ... under the pretext of being gains of illicit activities - guilty until you might prove otherwise.

Confiscation won't happen. Easier to steal your pension and wages

[pricha]

We're talking UK here. The government are stupid and lazy 😆 

[pricha]

I think the main point is not so much storage as advertising your hobby. There are two types of burglaries.  The opportunist who'll grap anything that's available and the professional thief who will target a property because they know something of value could be in there.  Protecting against both needs some thought. 

[Bratnia]

2 hours ago, pricha said:

Confiscation won't happen. Easier to steal your pension and wages

Son/daughter smoke pot one evening, neighbours complain of the odour and the police get a search warrant - during the execution of which they find gold coins and question the source of the funding of that gold. Gold, cash, cars etc. seized, bank accounts frozen, as potential proceeds of illicit activities - and you're left with having to demonstrate/prove otherwise, made worse by forensic trace evidence of pot having recently been present in the property.

A number of years back when HMRC were outsourcing investigations I was investigated, all turned out fine but the process was protracted and stressful, having to find all sorts of obscure paperwork for things that seemed to me to be totally irrelevant - within very tight timescales. Never found out why I was targeted, believe that they just scanned for less common tax reporting cases and randomly picked individual individual cases out of that to progress a fuller investigation. I believe they were rewarded on a prosecution percentage type basis so were most eager to find something/anything wrong.

[pricha]

Highly unlikely the police or anyone would be interested in a coin collection. Especially some older bloke with books on coin collecting and coins catalogued etc.  

I'm sure there are cases of freshly minted 1oz coins staked in boxes used for all sorts of dodgy things but there's a difference. 

Actually trying to get in touch with someone at HMRC would be a minor miracle let alone them having a huge army of people inspecting some  ordinary Joe's on PAYE. 

Going back to the original question Martysov said he doesn't want store gold at home but to hide it somewhere close ?? I wouldn't sleep at night if that was me . I cant possible think unless you risked digging a hole somewhere and bury it .

Another point. When I'm away from home for some  time ,  I hide all books on coin collecting from the shelf and any references to coins.  If HMRC ever did call then that's the reason you never keep receipts.  😉 

Edited May 26 by pricha

[Esjayc]

Perhaps slightly off topic, but following on from the last few posts, and a rare insight into my approach to things...

 

1. If storing at home... never tell anyone it's at home, unless there's one person you absolutely trust (or leave a clue to them, such as 'the key to my safe if I die, is at XYZ location'). I have not stated any of my PMs (precious metals) in my Will. Other folks will have their own opinions and variations on this stance.

2. My strategy with PMs is to hold long-term (I'm in my mid-30s). If in the future I want or need to sell a whole load, or family needs to sell under Lasting Power of Attorney / I am deceased, then the PMS are likely to go to a dealer for their ease. I've never sold to a dealer, let alone a significant quantity... so for that reason, and any HMRC or Gov safeguarding, I print off all invoices / proof of purchases, and store them in a secure fire and waterproof unit which is in a secure location. You may wish to consider retaining proof of purchases (and also sales).

3. Keep a record (secure USB drive is how I do it), of inventory (including any Marsh or Spink references for any unusual or rarer coins) and electronic copies of proof of purchase/sales.

4. I have a decent safe at home which is fireproof and bolted to the floor, in a hidden location, for the purposes of if PMs arrive via courier, and need to be stored until I can take them off-site. I did not even have the safe delivered to my house. I had it delivered to a work compound when no one was around, ensured that it was in non-descript packaging, and moved it myself to my home. That way, the courier and supplier thought it was for work, and no one new it was for me, or where it was going (my home).

5. I wanted to have a 1/4 gold britannia, a full, half and quarter bullion sovereign, 1oz silver britannia and 1oz silver eagle to hand, for doing unboxing videos and comparisons on my Sigma PM verifier to prove what I've received from a seller/dealer is real or fake... you can easily hide small amounts like that around the house (see number 6).

6. Following on from the end of the above point... do not buy a 'book safe' or a 'Heinz tin safe' which is hollow. These are well-known and very unconvincing. I used a tin opener which cuts the inner part of the lid, to cut the bottom off a supermarket branded tin (so it looks convincing because it is a real tin!), and used small neodymium magnets glued on the inside, to hold it in place - I store my two silver coins in here. I use a small, over the counter vitamin jar to contain my full, half and quarter sovereign. All coins are in capsules. I've also hollowed out book, so it looks like a book (because it is!) rather than buy one of these 'book safes'. The benefit of this, is if I want to transport a small amount, it just looks like a book. The inside is padded to avoid any noises coming from anything moving around.

The bottom line... your situation, your strategy, your beliefs will be your own and so think clearly about what you feel is best for you, in your circumstances. If you do keep PMs at home, unless you have someone you can 100% trust (refer to my first point), never tell anyone or let on to anyone that you're into PMs.

Hopefully this has been helpful in some way 🙂

[Anteater]

On 25/05/2024 at 13:52, martysov said:

Big question. Where do you store it all? Safe at home or safety storage box?

If a safe, what is a good one? I don't have a big house or anywhere i could safely put a safe, so what the best option?

My theory is that you either keep your home address private from people who know about your bullion (eg sellers you buy from on these forums), or you don't store it at your home (or at least, not the bulk of it). Personally I go for the latter option - I have some of my silver (not a lot of it) at home to look at but everything else is stored off-site.

My off-site storage location isn't something I'm going to discuss, but it's an option that most people wouldn't have so I don't think it would help much anyway. I'm not that keen on safety deposit boxes since your access to them relies other people whom you don't have a close relationship with.

I know a little about safes and I'd say look at a Eurograde safe with a cash rating covering the amount you need to store in bullion (since bullion is highly liquid, more like cash than other valuables) and make sure it's properly installed, too. But even this only helps if you have some level of detection and response to break-ins: if you allow an attacker unlimited long-term access to any safe they can break into it. Personally I'd go for a mechanical  rather than electronic lock - but the problem with locks is that the people who know more about electronics will tell you to go for a mechanical lock, and the people who know about mechanical locks will tell you to go for an electronic one...

On 26/05/2024 at 15:57, Bratnia said:

Son/daughter smoke pot one evening, neighbours complain of the odour and the police get a search warrant

Having known people who've had problems with neighbours causing lots of cannabis smoke to enter their home, I think that particular scenario is highly unlikely.

Edited May 27 by Anteater

[Esjayc]

@anteater gives good advice. In terms of my safe - it has the option to buy it with a key, combi, or electronic code lock. I opted for the key. If anything happens to me, a family member knows where the key is. The location of the key is specified in my Will (not what the key leads to or any further clues). Part of my thinking is my own ease of access, as a key is simple to insert and turn, if I get dexterity difficulties or cant remember the code etc. Likewise, they key can be passed to a trusted family member if a circumstance necessitating that arises.

[Petra]

On 26/05/2024 at 15:57, Bratnia said:

Son/daughter smoke pot one evening, neighbours complain of the odour and the police get a search warrant - during the execution of which they find gold coins and question the source of the funding of that gold. Gold, cash, cars etc. seized, bank accounts frozen, as potential proceeds of illicit activities - and you're left with having to demonstrate/prove otherwise, made worse by forensic trace evidence of pot having recently been present in the property.

A number of years back when HMRC were outsourcing investigations I was investigated, all turned out fine but the process was protracted and stressful, having to find all sorts of obscure paperwork for things that seemed to me to be totally irrelevant - within very tight timescales. Never found out why I was targeted, believe that they just scanned for less common tax reporting cases and randomly picked individual individual cases out of that to progress a fuller investigation. I believe they were rewarded on a prosecution percentage type basis so were most eager to find something/anything wrong.

🤔unless it was your son / daughter, you have a very active imagination 🤔🤔

[Gruff]

An interesting topic, especially if there aren't any non-bank safe deposits in your town/city. 
That would then mean travelling a distance. I know others on here will catch a train "greyman stlye" into the local big city and go to theirs and drop off a decent amount. 

I think a combination of the two. Perhaps have some in a super secret location in the house, but then have some in a more visible safe to be a loss leader, so the opportunist will see that and take it and go. 

Regardless of what you do, don't tell anyone about it. The less people know the safer it is for you

[Spyder]

There are many scum bags around, so say very little and show even less.  There is a thread on this forum where members show all they have in photos, can never understand why members would do that. 

Look at the poor unfortunate watch dealer in Richmond who got robbed the other day and the loss and probably embarrassment was such that he took his own life.  RIP  

[Aldebaran]

On 26/05/2024 at 15:57, Bratnia said:

Son/daughter smoke pot one evening, neighbours complain of the odour and the police get a search warrant - during the execution of which they find gold coins and question the source of the funding of that gold. Gold, cash, cars etc. seized, bank accounts frozen, as potential proceeds of illicit activities - and you're left with having to demonstrate/prove otherwise, made worse by forensic trace evidence of pot having recently been present in the property.

A number of years back when HMRC were outsourcing investigations I was investigated, all turned out fine but the process was protracted and stressful, having to find all sorts of obscure paperwork for things that seemed to me to be totally irrelevant - within very tight timescales. Never found out why I was targeted, believe that they just scanned for less common tax reporting cases and randomly picked individual individual cases out of that to progress a fuller investigation. I believe they were rewarded on a prosecution percentage type basis so were most eager to find something/anything wrong.

Only people who have undergone an investigation will understand.

I understand - it changes one’s outlook for ever.

I cannot imagine what an investigation would be like if one had actually committed fraud. 🖖