Is this c1700 Britannia Lions Head Erased

[Burwoodhall]

I am not a silver expert and do not have the expertise to "test" the metal. I have researched everything I could think of and still confused.  This has been in my collection for a while and I want to write a blog about it for my "antiques academy". This 7" dish LOOKS and cleans up like sterling. The hallmarks are crazy confusing. It has to me what is described as the 1697-1719 hallmarks of lions head erased, and Britannia...and I can see what might be makers initials of MH on the left side but over on the right side is an impressed double headed eagle. Why?    and I don't see a "date letter".   According to  Chats on Old Silver by EL Lowes c1909,  Page 173-74, “During the reign of William and Mary, the hallmarking was changed in order to stop the melting of coins to make silver items.  The standard for silver was raised and melting coins was forbidden.  The new hallmarks would be the figure of Britannia and a lions head erased “which will be found on all silver between 1697 and 1720”. Silversmiths were ordered to destroy all their old punches, using for the future the new marks and the first two letters of their surnames instead of their initials or other private mark. Each silversmith was to register their name and strike an impression from his punch in Goldsmiths Hall. "    The MH could be the last name of the maker, the lions head erased and britannia and appearance of the metal makes me think sterling c1700 but no date letter and the odd double headed eagle mark. Now add one more layer of confusion... a crowned rose and London impression.  But I am quite certain this is not pewter.  It doesn't look or act like any of my pewter.   Was someone trying to avoid paying a tax or duty by stamping the rose? Conversely, Was it legit to use the Britannia and lions head erased on something if it wasn't sterling?  What is the story?  I am starting a home school program to teach history through the research of antique objects. A "hands on" approach.  Antiques Academy is a newly created website at burwoodhallgolfbnb.com My students will hopefully learn more than history, they will acquire a new appreciation for antiques.  I recently found another coin silver knife that had been defaced by adding Oregano to the blade.  The knife was engraved L T Mallory for the Mallory family of Franklin (Mallory Lane in Cool Springs).  Thank you for your assistance. 

[Arganto]

Hi, I posted this recently which may be of interest;

 

I'll have a look for the hallmarks now, there are some great sleuths on here @stefffana @sixgun @HerefordBullyun to name a few.

[Arganto]

*

Edited September 25, 2022 by Arganto
* post not helpful, poor comprehension on my part

[Arganto]

*

Edited September 25, 2022 by Arganto
* post not helpful, poor comprehension on my part

[HerefordBullyun]

With it being a double headed eagle mark its from the Napoleonic era also. I had a flick through my book and google - you can see that the brittania mark is worn. i can see the lions head which is in that cycle period. Which looks somewhat different. the makers mark to the left is obfuscated.

[HerefordBullyun]

Also the britannia concludes it's a jubilee year and during this period there was only one therefore I can conclude is 1814.

[SidS]

42 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

Also the britannia concludes it's a jubilee year and during this period there was only one therefore I can conclude is 1814.

Jubilee of what though? George III became king in 1760, so 54 years on the throne? Seems odd if so.

Anniversary of something else?

[HerefordBullyun]

4 minutes ago, SidS said:

Jubilee of what though? George III became king in 1760, so 54 years on the throne? Seems odd if so.

Anniversary of something else?

I googled jubilee years of Napoleonic era and it came up with that date! i could be wrong!

[SidS]

21 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

I googled jubilee years of Napoleonic era and it came up with that date! i could be wrong!

1804-1814 would make sense. Napoleon became emperor in 1804 did he not?

[HerefordBullyun]

9 minutes ago, SidS said:

1804-1814 would make sense. Napoleon became emperor in 1804 did he not?

you could be right

[SidS]

5 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

you could be right

That's not usually how it pans out... 😁

[sixgun]

My first thoughts were that this was not a UK hallmark. The reason being the double headed eagle. Was this for example a Russian mark? When did UK silver marks ever show a double headed eagle?

The seated figure and the lions head are similar to the marks for Britannia grade of silver, we might think the seated figure is Britannia. However it is an odd looking Britannia. Where is her helmet? She has her head turned and is looking to her left (our right).

This is a typical Britannia - She is turned to her right and facing to her right. The figure in the piece in question has her head turned. 

Here is another Britannia c/o Chards website

The posture of figure is in the style of the Seated Liberty - i have had to flip this horizontally.

Edited September 25, 2022 by sixgun

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, HerefordBullyun said:

 the makers mark to the left is obfuscated.

Now there's a word I don't see very often. Is obfuscated one of your Sunday words.

I might have to look it up, as it's not clear to me what it means. If you will use such obscure words your meaning can only be expected to be unintelligible, which is not what we have come to expect of you.

😎

[Arganto]

I absolutely love the juxtaposition between Bully's normal demeanor and his treatment of silver hallmark threads. I feel a pint of Henry Weston and a selection of unknown hallmarks may be the way to this man's heart. That and his dolly of course 😉

[HerefordBullyun]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

Now there's a word I don't see very often. Is obfuscated one of your Sunday words.

I might have to look it up, as it's not clear to me what it means. If you will use such obscure words your meaning can only be expected to be unintelligible, which is not what we have come to expect of you.

😎

Well Mr C there more to Mr bully than you think. I know I crayon drivel on here regularly like I have the IQ of mashed potato, but there is another side to Mr B and not just producing 'au naturalment fertlizers' to make the rhubarb triangle even bigger. 

I am a man of many talents, I can thank my military CV for that. Jack of all trades master of none. More waffle than birdseye.....Degree in university of life and school of hard knocks.

So one day, one day I can be of service to others in TSF......

But I will hang around to just to stay here as the chief morale officer for now!

 

[HerefordBullyun]

2 minutes ago, Arganto said:

 That and his dolly of course 😉

Ive already left my hallmark on dolly already several times, they dont call me the Hairyford Dolly crumpet radar for nothing.

I read her poetry, her favourite is the scottish poet Rubber burns! 

[HerefordBullyun]

7 minutes ago, Arganto said:

I absolutely love the juxtaposition 

Is this listed in the karma sutra?

Who is she? never heard of her!

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Now there's a word I don't see very often. Is obfuscated one of your Sunday words.

I might have to look it up, as it's not clear to me what it means. If you will use such obscure words your meaning can only be expected to be unintelligible, which is not what we have come to expect of you.

😎

 

1 hour ago, Arganto said:

I absolutely love the juxtaposition between Bully's normal demeanor and his treatment of silver hallmark threads. I feel a pint of Henry Weston and a selection of unknown hallmarks may be the way to this man's heart. That and his dolly of course 😉

 

1 hour ago, HerefordBullyun said:

Is this listed in the karma sutra?

Who is she? never heard of her!

Quite clearly, it seems to be some sort of Sunday Word Challenge:

That's my opinion of course, but perhaps it's "just a position" I adopted.

First obfuscated

Now juxtaposition

Who's going to supply the next "Word of the Day"?

😎

 

[HerefordBullyun]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

Quite clearly, it seems to be some sort of Sunday Word Challenge:

That's my opinion of course, but perhaps it's "just a position" I adopted.

First obfuscated

Now juxtaposition

Who's going to supply the next "Word of the Day"?

😎

 

Antidisestablimentarianism 

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, Burwoodhall said:

I am not a silver expert and do not have the expertise to "test" the metal. I have researched everything I could think of and still confused.  This has been in my collection for a while and I want to write a blog about it for my "antiques academy". This 7" dish LOOKS and cleans up like sterling. The hallmarks are crazy confusing. It has to me what is described as the 1697-1719 hallmarks of lions head erased, and Britannia...and I can see what might be makers initials of MH on the left side but over on the right side is an impressed double headed eagle. Why?    and I don't see a "date letter".   According to  Chats on Old Silver by EL Lowes c1909,  Page 173-74, “During the reign of William and Mary, the hallmarking was changed in order to stop the melting of coins to make silver items.  The standard for silver was raised and melting coins was forbidden.  The new hallmarks would be the figure of Britannia and a lions head erased “which will be found on all silver between 1697 and 1720”. Silversmiths were ordered to destroy all their old punches, using for the future the new marks and the first two letters of their surnames instead of their initials or other private mark. Each silversmith was to register their name and strike an impression from his punch in Goldsmiths Hall. "    The MH could be the last name of the maker, the lions head erased and britannia and appearance of the metal makes me think sterling c1700 but no date letter and the odd double headed eagle mark. Now add one more layer of confusion... a crowned rose and London impression.  But I am quite certain this is not pewter.  It doesn't look or act like any of my pewter.   Was someone trying to avoid paying a tax or duty by stamping the rose? Conversely, Was it legit to use the Britannia and lions head erased on something if it wasn't sterling?  What is the story?  I am starting a home school program to teach history through the research of antique objects. A "hands on" approach.  Antiques Academy is a newly created website at burwoodhallgolfbnb.com My students will hopefully learn more than history, they will acquire a new appreciation for antiques.  I recently found another coin silver knife that had been defaced by adding Oregano to the blade.  The knife was engraved L T Mallory for the Mallory family of Franklin (Mallory Lane in Cool Springs).  Thank you for your assistance. 

As often, this could be helped by better or more photos.

The left hand mark in your top photo is unclear, perhaps worn, but you might be able to get a better photo.

The seated figure could be identified better if we could see his / her attributes, for example, is there a flag on the shield? if so is the a Union Flag (Jack), or some other.

It would also be worth cropping the photos, and how about showing an inverted close-up of the lower mark which looks like "LOND..."?

There are very many deities and personifications, on coins and elsewhere, which show a seated figure with a shield and other attributes.

If we can be sure the figure is Britannia, then we should be able to assume the metal is Britannia silver (95.83%).

😎

[Stuntman]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

Quite clearly, it seems to be some sort of Sunday Word Challenge:

That's my opinion of course, but perhaps it's "just a position" I adopted.

First obfuscated

Now juxtaposition

Who's going to supply the next "Word of the Day"?

😎

 

I will give you the word 'tmesis'.

You can find it every-blooming-where on the internet.  

😉

[stefffana]

4 hours ago, sixgun said:

My first thoughts were that this was not a UK hallmark. The reason being the double headed eagle. Was this for example a Russian mark? When did UK silver marks ever show a double headed eagle?

The seated figure and the lions head are similar to the marks for Britannia grade of silver, we might think the seated figure is Britannia. However it is an odd looking Britannia. Where is her helmet? She has her head turned and is looking to her left (our right).

This is a typical Britannia - She is turned to her right and facing to her right. The figure in the piece in question has her head turned. 

Here is another Britannia c/o Chards website

The posture of figure is in the style of the Seated Liberty - i have had to flip this horizontally.

Hi, guys!

I think @sixgun is right in his thoughts about wrong looking Britannia. It is made to look like, but it is different. The lion's head erased it is also totally different. Here are some good looking examples downloaded from silvercollection.it site.

 

I couldn't find any similar looking hallmarks as pictured by @Burwoodhall.

The double headed eagle it is not russian, because is missing the imperial crown.

I think it is a german hallmark of the Lubeck City - Schleswig-Holstein, used between 16th and 18th centuries.

See https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_b1884_4.html.

I could find an example of this double headed eagle on another online source:

 

Lubeck City according Wikipedia, has been an important commercial centre at the Baltic Sea in 16th-17th century. At that time, the regulations about hallmarks were not very strict in continental Europe, so I can imagine/suppose that some unscrupulous silversmiths were taking advantage, flogging around their silverware using some pseudo-hallmarks to sell their stuffs for a better price to foreigners.

The same bad habit was noticed later at silversmiths from Hanau, Germany, according to silvercollection.it/Hanau:

 ""Generally speaking, the recognition of reproduction silver does not present a problem since it is marked according to the laws of the country of origin. Contrary to this, the antique silver industry of Hanau chose to mark its output with fantasy marks. It is difficult to say if this was practiced with a clear intent to deceive. But it is strange that the spurious marks somewhat resemble old marks, and are also harmonized with the style of the piece. For example, French rococo style reproductions are marked with French looking marks, German seventeenth century-inspired pieces got German-looking marks, and so on. Furthermore, most Hanau firms chose as company marks styles reminiscent of seventeenth and eighteenth century maker's marks.
Mark stamping as practiced in Hanau would have been completely illegal in France or England, or for that matter in any other German city where a guild supervised the marking. But Hanau had a long tradition as a free-trade city.
With the production of "antique silver", Hanau found a market niche, which brought its silver manufacturers enormous prosperity and worldwide reputation. The 'father' of this industry was August Schleissner.""

 

I think this is the case on here: a german silver piece made in Lubeck, hallmarked to look very british and imperial.😁

Would be interesting to be professionally tested using a Xray machine. I can bet £10 that it is silver .800-.830 purity.

All the best!

Stefan.

[LawrenceChard]

14 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

I will give you the word 'tmesis'.

You can find it every-blooming-where on the internet.  

😉

I think that should win today's W.o.t.D. award, or perhaps W.o.t.F.D. award.

Having never seen, heard, or noticed it before, I thought you were trying to draw my attention to one of my frequent typos, and was pondering what word I could have mangled so badly.

😎

[Arganto]

3 hours ago, stefffana said:

hallmarked to look very british and imperial

That there lady looks like Hibernia (Ireland), which confuses things even more...

[stefffana]

Just now, Arganto said:

That there lady looks like Hibernia (Ireland), which confuses things even more...

Yes, indeed!😂😂😂