1854 Victoria Shield Sovereign WW Incuse Macro Photos and Serration Count

[LawrenceChard]

1854 Victoria Shield Sovereign WW Incuse Macro Photos and Serration Count

Whenever I see a coin in exceptional condition, I want to photograph it, although it's better if I delegate the job, and the Photoshopping, to others with more time and skills.

While modern issue coins are usually in "Mint Condition" (whatever that means), I get more excited when I see an older circulation coin in a high grade. 

Here is a recent example:

The "5" of the date looks interesting, and even the "8".

Some of the letters are doubled, or have die cracks or other features.

Thw "WW" initials are incuse. Gold sovereigns from 1853 to 1855 occur with raised or incuse initials. I could never understand why Marsh did not count these as separate varieties. He merely noted they exist, and left it at that. I will probably never find out, as it is now too late to ask him.

Before I show more photos, does anyone want to try and guess how many serrations? No prizes, and just for your own amusement. Answer shown on and below the last photo.

The "M" in BRITANNIARUM is doubled, and the bottom serifs on the "A"s are all joined up into one line.

Obverse with overlay showing the incuse WW initials.

...and for those who have volunteered for the serration count challenge...

...(drum roll)...

The answer is 112.

You migh like to compare this with an 1872 shield I posted some time ago:

😎

Edited July 3, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[papi1980]

Amazing coin Lawrence! Victoria shields are my favourites!!!

probably a stupid question (already answered in TSF) but what is the copper content of this sovereign? If any?

Asking this since the colour has some red nuance (at least on the photo) 

 

[LawrenceChard]

2 minutes ago, papi1980 said:

Amazing coin Lawrence! Victoria shields are my favourites!!!

probably a stupid question (already answered in TSF) but what is the copper content of this sovereign? If any?

Asking this since the colour has some red nuance (at least on the photo) 

 

I am not aware of having Niton tested this coin.

If it is possible, I will try to remember to see if it still available and "raw".

Meanwhile, I disagree about the red nuance. Any red you are seeing is probably due to some toning during its near two centuries of existence.

Although it boils down to almost the same question, I think it more relevant to ask the silver content rather than the copper content, although wome other elements may also have an beneficial effect on reducing the redness of copper, zinc for example.

As this is a relatively early Victorian sovereign, my guess is about 10 parts per thousand silver, although before I wrote that, I checked here for guidance:

I / we need to do some more work on recording this information.

Meanwhile, I would be interested to hear your guess!

😎

[papi1980]

Thanks. I have to admit that my guess was 107..but that was more of ‘finger in the air’ + assumptions that RM was not too bothered to manufacture sovereigns with large number of serrations (too complex compared to the technology today) but again I had no idea

Re the reddish nuance, it could be entirely on the light / toning. 

 

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, papi1980 said:

Thanks. I have to admit that my guess was 107..but that was more of ‘finger in the air’ + assumptions that RM was not too bothered to manufacture sovereigns with large number of serrations (too complex compared to the technology today) but again I had no idea

Re the reddish nuance, it could be entirely on the light / toning. 

 

107 is not a bad guess for the number of serrations, but I was inviting your guess for the silver content!

😎

[papi1980]

You got me…:) on the silver content I was thinking 6% silver and 2-3 % other of which I expected small copper content 

[LawrenceChard]

29 minutes ago, papi1980 said:

You got me…:) on the silver content I was thinking 6% silver and 2-3 % other of which I expected small copper content 

It will be more like 0.6% = 6 ppt (parts per thousand)!

😎

[Booky586]

The coin is very pleasing to the eye and excellent photos as usual!

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Whenever I see a coin in exceptional condition, I want to photograph it

Can't agree more. My eyes aren't what they used to be and I struggle viewing the detail on a 22mm coin in the hand. And a loupe doesn't really do it for me either. But a quality photo shows all the detail you need and is so easy for sharing too, thank you.

I photograph all my coins before they are stored safely away, but I always have access to the photos for reference an any time. And a photo is very useful when it comes to sell the coin on too.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Booky586

[SidS]

I couldn't agree more with you @LawrenceChard about older coins in higher grades being interesting survivors.

I always get awestruck by copper and bronze coins that are UNC still with their original red colour. These just amaze me how they survive. Colin Cooke used to have some immaculate farthings from the 1600 and 1700s still as bright as buttons and I'm not a fan of copper coins generally.

[LawrenceChard]

22 minutes ago, SidS said:

I couldn't agree more with you @LawrenceChard about older coins in higher grades being interesting survivors.

I always get awestruck by copper and bronze coins that are UNC still with their original red colour. These just amaze me how they survive. Colin Cooke used to have some immaculate farthings from the 1600 and 1700s still as bright as buttons and I'm not a fan of copper coins generally.

Yes, I agree about old copper, and Colin. I was going to go over to see him about a year before he died, and I have still not made the short journey yet (to his old colleagues, not him personally)!

😎

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, papi1980 said:

You got me…:) on the silver content I was thinking 6% silver and 2-3 % other of which I expected small copper content 

Alloys  used in sovereigns has been well discussed on TSF. Copper has nearly always been used in the alloy, often with small amounts of silver to produce a 'yellow gold' appearance. The reddish colour  you see today on our sovereigns is because of the lack of silver! Don't get L.C. started on this....!! As far as I am aware, the only sovereigns using no copper whatsoever (just silver) are a few Perth mint proofs. eg 2005 which have a slight yellow-greenish hue.

[Britannia47]

Re. @LawrenceChard the 1854 serration count photo. Have I spotted what appears to be a broken denticle  below the left side of the last date digit (4)?  We had a 'denticle' topic recently - not sure what the conclusions were last time. Without trawling back I think there were several different years with the broken denticle in exactly the same  place.....

 

 

[dicker]

We like a denticle diversion….

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Britannia47 said:

Re. @LawrenceChard the 1854 serration count photo. Have I spotted what appears to be a broken denticle  below the left side of the last date digit (4)?  We had a 'denticle' topic recently - not sure what the conclusions were last time. Without trawling back I think there were several different years with the broken denticle in exactly the same  place.....

 

 

1 hour ago, dicker said:

We like a denticle diversion….

It is not quite as obvious as the previous ones.

I could always check. It must be better to have a denticle test than a testicle dent!

😎

[Norskgeld]

12 hours ago, dicker said:

We like a denticle diversion….

Carry On Coins...Ooohhhh Matron. ☺️

[Arganto]

That's lovely, it almost looks frosty 😋

[Britannia47]

Just dug out my own 1854 for a comparison. Yes, it also has a stumpy denticle in the usual place, but this may (or not) be a Marsh 37B with an over-rotated 'C'.  I've rotated the photo so others might offer an opinion. Even L.C.s 'C' seems

slightly over rotated.  This sovereign looks much better at normal size!

 

[dicker]

Love the denticle debate.

Not sure about the “C” but is the A in Victoria un-barred?

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

Love the denticle debate.

Not sure about the “C” but is the A in Victoria un-barred?

 I agree its not easy to be certain. I had thought if a line was drawn through the vertical axis of the 'C' to the perpendicular of the arc of the circumference it should be OK if it dissects the centre point. What the f...k am I talking about?!!  I will do some more homework on this. I have never been impressed by the draughtsmanship and alignment of the numbers and lettering on 'Young Heads'  It all looks a bit D.I.Y. to me. One miss hit and you have a new variety! 

Yes, there was the tiniest bar on the 'A'  Thanks for trying to help