1868 Gold Dollar, Ebay Purchase, Fake

[SilverJacks]

I recently purchase the aforementioned coin, receiving it today. The seller provided poor quality pictures which made me suspicious, but the coin appeared to be potentially lustrous. He was also selling a number of other small gold coins, 1/10 Kruger, 1 rand, 10 Kroner etc. he had good feedback for some of these small coins which led me to try my luck with this purchase.

Unfortunately, I’m quite confident it is a fake. The first thing I noticed was the nice luster over the worn detail. At this point I was thinking the best outcome may be whizzed. Although it seemed likely fake.

A quick search for examples of fakes appeared to show tell tale signs. 
a very useful NGC article showed a known sign of fakes in the form of a long depression between the E and the S. 

optimistically hoping this could be a die crack or something legitimate, the line doesn’t exactly match the position in the NGC example, and rather than a depression, seemed raised. Although the fact that it is present right between the E and S seems to be quite damning?

the next issue, which just kills all hope for me, is the strange large dimple on the bust pictured in the photo used by NGC to depict a classic fake. 
 

Looking at the rest of the coin, it has sharp rough edges on the rim, and the edge side of coin has very weak reeding. Difficult to picture the edge but I have tried nevertheless. It also has some small dimples in the fields that I could not clearly show in the photos.

so, could anyone confirm what I already know, this is fake right?

at first glance it looks legit. Upon closer inspection it disappoints. The luster fooled me. Live and learn. I guess you can produce luster with an entirely fakes coin from scratch right? According to NGC, counterfeiters were purchasing double eagle bullion at near melt, and producing 20 fake dollar coins from it with exactly correct composition…

 

 

 

 

[SilverJacks]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USA-Gold-one-Dollar-Coin-1868-/304518717443?nma=true&si=czDfJ%2F0Gb6NH5UYwPHRPaM27tP8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/40/

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/18/

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/

[James32]

16 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USA-Gold-one-Dollar-Coin-1868-/304518717443?nma=true&si=czDfJ%2F0Gb6NH5UYwPHRPaM27tP8%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/40/

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/18/

https://www.ngccoin.in/resources/counterfeit-detection/top/united-states/

@Scaffstacker has a graded one up for sale currently, maybe reach out to him for clearer pictures and then compare. 

[SilverJacks]

Cheers James. I've seen Scaffstackers. It is a lovely coin in a cool retro holder.

There are many pics available. I am just wondering whether someone with more experience might yet give reason for it being potentially genuine, although it seems rather doubtful. 

[James32]

@Leonmarsh can you offer any insight?

[LawrenceChard]

56 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

1868 Gold Dollar, Ebay Purchase, Fake

I recently purchase the aforementioned coin, receiving it today. The seller provided poor quality pictures which made me suspicious, but the coin appeared to be potentially lustrous. He was also selling a number of other small gold coins, 1/10 Kruger, 1 rand, 10 Kroner etc. he had good feedback for some of these small coins which led me to try my luck with this purchase.

Unfortunately, I’m quite confident it is a fake. The first thing I noticed was the nice luster over the worn detail. At this point I was thinking the best outcome may be whizzed. Although it seemed likely fake.

A quick search for examples of fakes appeared to show tell tale signs. 
a very useful NGC article showed a known sign of fakes in the form of a long depression between the E and the S. 

optimistically hoping this could be a die crack or something legitimate, the line doesn’t exactly match the position in the NGC example, and rather than a depression, seemed raised. Although the fact that it is present right between the E and S seems to be quite damning?

the next issue, which just kills all hope for me, is the strange large dimple on the bust pictured in the photo used by NGC to depict a classic fake. 
 

Looking at the rest of the coin, it has sharp rough edges on the rim, and the edge side of coin has very weak reeding. Difficult to picture the edge but I have tried nevertheless. It also has some small dimples in the fields that I could not clearly show in the photos.

so, could anyone confirm what I already know, this is fake right?

at first glance it looks legit. Upon closer inspection it disappoints. The luster fooled me. Live and learn. I guess you can produce luster with an entirely fakes coin from scratch right? According to NGC, counterfeiters were purchasing double eagle bullion at near melt, and producing 20 fake dollar coins from it with exactly correct composition…

 

Aren't the words Ebay and Fake, in the same sentence, a prime example of tautology?

😎

[dicker]

Theses are old but very very useful….

https://www.money.org/uploads/Counterfeit Detection Vol.2.pdf
 

https://www.money.org/uploads/Counterfeit Detection Vol.1.pdf

Ebay…..I am afraid it really isn’t a great place to buy for many many reasons.

Best

Dicker

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

Theses are old but very very useful….

https://www.money.org/uploads/Counterfeit Detection Vol.2.pdf
 

https://www.money.org/uploads/Counterfeit Detection Vol.1.pdf

Ebay…..I am afraid it really isn’t a great place to buy for many many reasons.

Best

Dicker

Including many many fakes?

😎

[Scaffstacker]

With these old coins from over sea’s I try to stick to graded coins you can verify, 

looking at mine it doesn’t have the bump on the lower neck or anything wrong with the e or the s thankfully,

also I can see a fully serrated edge on my ms61 coin as it has a clear slab unfortunately I’m using a older iPhone currently so closer pics may not help,

these coins are heavily faked and American eBay is awash with them starting at stupidly low prices, 

and then you go a bit further back into the gold rush era with California fractionals and it’s even worse as jewellers produced them (25c, 50c) as change for these $1dollar coins as the country was awash with gold at the time, 

it’s a bit of a dodgey territory and best sticking to the graded examples I’m probably going to keep mine and get it graded by ngc and with a bit of conservation I hope it comes back higher than ms61 as it’s a old green holder pcgs slab currently and will go great with my ngc ms64 25c cal frac,

I hope you get sorted and it works out for you.

[Leonmarsh]

Without having the coin in hand it's hard to be certain, but based on my knowledge it is a copy, will more than likely be gold so will test right anf weigh right etc but a copy of the coin which is common with American coinage

[SilverJacks]

Appreciate everyone's thoughts. Many thanks guys. I understand it is not easy to form an opinion on photos, particularly ones that aren't high res.

The coin is so lustrous that I want it to be genuine. Part of me is thinking get it submitted and see what happens. My more sensible side is telling me to contact seller and begin the return process. I guess what should be taken from this is that luster does not indicate authenticity since die struck fakes are going to produce luster. And a sign of this is good luster over missing/weak detail?... I think...

[dicker]

3 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Including many many fakes?

😎

They do and what to look for. 

[SilverJacks]

Found this also. Apparently the "ghost I" in America is a dead give away.  - https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=415666

At least I have learned a number of red flags associated with these coins. 

Hopefully the seller won't try and pass this on once I return it.. 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, SilverJacks said:

Found this also. Apparently the "ghost I" in America is a dead give away.  - https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=415666

At least I have learned a number of red flags associated with these coins. 

Hopefully the seller won't try and pass this on once I return it.. 

I wouldn't bet against it!

😎

[SilverJacks]

On 16/06/2022 at 22:10, LawrenceChard said:

I wouldn't bet against it!

😎

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305651751148?itmmeta=01J21ZGBX3W8YFKWZ8H4TFDR1E&hash=item472a4398ec:g:dqoAAOSw1b1mhBDk