How to test a PM is real?

[Silverman2U]

Hi I am not sure this is a topic here, could not find, please correct me if I a wrong. I was interested in determining how you can purchase gold or silver here or anywhere to determine it is real or not. For example I have read sovereigns of the most forged gold coins in the world. 

So my take on it is this. I invite all other members to comment please as I have only been in stacking/collecting for the last year. 

How to determine what you are buying is real (my thoughts)

* For silver -- Using a small neodymium magnet (cheap enough to buy on amazon prime) on a coin tilted at a 45 degree angle you will notice the motion of the magnet sliding down the coin is slower than if it has no silver content. In both cases the magnet DOES NOT stick to the coin. The higher the silver the content the slower the motion. i.e. Its hard to detect the diverence on a 0.5 silver coin compared to a British silver crown pre 1920's (0.925% silver content).  

* Silver & Gold - Chemical testing. Which I would not do, as can damage coin. 

* Checking sellers past history. If this is on ebay or TSF (The Silver Forum) you can see reviews and feedback. You can also see how long they have been trading for. The challenge as a buyer on TSF is when buying with PPFF (Friends and family Paypal) or direct money transfer which give you no protection financial. The benefit to the seller is they can offer you a better deal than paypal as they do not have a paypal's  paid protection version. So maybe consider offering to cover the 4% charge the seller would have to pay if you want the coin?

* Weighting the coin using a jewellers scale. This is something I learnt early on in the auction houses with all the silver deals coming through. A standard gold sovereign was standardised after 1817 and is 7.98 grams. Does it say 1890 on your coin and weight 5 grams? It's fake. A jewellers scale from amazon or ebay can be  worth it's weight in gold. 

* Were coins of the type you are buying produced in that year? If so how many? Some years are very common others are not. Some years during the war no gold soverigns were made is all focus was on the war efforts. Lets too consider that if you were to get a fake of any coin logic would suggest it is likely to be the ones of greatest value. This is when certification of coins, in particular for numismatic value should be obtained. Is the coin bullion (poor definition of image) , uncirculated (stamped image a few times), proof (stamped a few more times again to get the sharpest image)? I realise more and more as collector you need to know your coin and it's lineage in amazingly great accuracy. 

* Don't be buying silver (or gold) at cut throat prices (or even normal prices) from China on ebay.  Even with protection you will get it, need to check it, and then if you do get a refund you have lost time in the process. Time = work = real money. 

NOTE: Gold. At this time the only way to best determine if a gold coin is real is by weight, dimensions, and possible mainly so in the strength of past trading by the seller you are buying from. I have done this recently, high trading volumes, been doing for years, 100% great reviews, and they are in this forum (which I am getting to like more and more daily I must admit!). I have learnt that people that are prepared to pay for a service and usually more likely to respect and use that service appropriately (as they are paying). You still need to carry out due diligence but I think you will find you have less issues here on TSF than other sites. Seeing great deals on gold coins is good, but having a great deal on a coin from a seller with no trade history, or way to show reviews on ebay or amazon, leads to higher risk, especially when doing money transfers. Remember if the coin turns out to be made of tungsten (similar atomic number and thus weight to gold) how much did you loose, how many deals would you have to make to get your looses back? 

Something interesting I found on Kruggrand

https://www.orobel.biz/information/news/fakes-counterfakes-krugerrand

[Pipers]

1 hour ago, Silverman2U said:

Hi I am not sure this is a topic here, could not find, please correct me if I a wrong. I was interested in determining how you can purchase gold or silver here or anywhere to determine it is real or not. For example I have read sovereigns of the most forged gold coins in the world. 

So my take on it is this. I invite all other members to comment please as I have only been in stacking/collecting for the last year. 

How to determine what you are buying is real (my thoughts)

* For silver -- Using a small neodymium magnet (cheap enough to buy on amazon prime) on a coin tilted at a 45 degree angle you will notice the motion of the magnet sliding down the coin is slower than if it has no silver content. In both cases the magnet DOES NOT stick to the coin. The higher the silver the content the slower the motion. i.e. Its hard to detect the diverence on a 0.5 silver coin compared to a British silver crown pre 1920's (0.925% silver content).  

* Silver & Gold - Chemical testing. Which I would not do, as can damage coin. 

* Checking sellers past history. If this is on ebay or TSF (The Silver Forum) you can see reviews and feedback. You can also see how long they have been trading for. The challenge as a buyer on TSF is when buying with PPFF (Friends and family Paypal) or direct money transfer which give you no protection financial. The benefit to the seller is they can offer you a better deal than paypal as they do not have a paypal's  paid protection version. So maybe consider offering to cover the 4% charge the seller would have to pay if you want the coin?

* Weighting the coin using a jewellers scale. This is something I learnt early on in the auction houses with all the silver deals coming through. A standard gold sovereign was standardised after 1817 and is 7.98 grams. Does it say 1890 on your coin and weight 5 grams? It's fake. A jewellers scale from amazon or ebay can be  worth it's weight in gold. 

* Were coins of the type you are buying produced in that year? If so how many? Some years are very common others are not. Some years during the war no gold soverigns were made is all focus was on the war efforts. Lets too consider that if you were to get a fake of any coin logic would suggest it is likely to be the ones of greatest value. This is when certification of coins, in particular for numismatic value should be obtained. Is the coin bullion (poor definition of image) , uncirculated (stamped image a few times), proof (stamped a few more times again to get the sharpest image)? I realise more and more as collector you need to know your coin and it's lineage in amazingly great accuracy. 

* Don't be buying silver (or gold) at cut throat prices (or even normal prices) from China on ebay.  Even with protection you will get it, need to check it, and then if you do get a refund you have lost time in the process. Time = work = real money. 

NOTE: Gold. At this time the only way to best determine if a gold coin is real is by weight, dimensions, and possible mainly so in the strength of past trading by the seller you are buying from. I have done this recently, high trading volumes, been doing for years, 100% great reviews, and they are in this forum (which I am getting to like more and more daily I must admit!). I have learnt that people that are prepared to pay for a service and usually more likely to respect and use that service appropriately (as they are paying). You still need to carry out due diligence but I think you will find you have less issues here on TSF than other sites. Seeing great deals on gold coins is good, but having a great deal on a coin from a seller with no trade history, or way to show reviews on ebay or amazon, leads to higher risk, especially when doing money transfers. Remember if the coin turns out to be made of tungsten (similar atomic number and thus weight to gold) how much did you loose, how many deals would you have to make to get your looses back? 

Something interesting I found on Kruggrand

https://www.orobel.biz/information/news/fakes-counterfakes-krugerrand

This has been put on the forum many times, Chards have a lot of information on there site some of it on there old site.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/fakes-forgeries-and-counterfeit-gold-coins-and-sovereigns/167

[Frenchie]

2 hours ago, Silverman2U said:

Hi I am not sure this is a topic here, could not find, please correct me if I a wrong. I was interested in determining how you can purchase gold or silver here or anywhere to determine it is real or not. For example I have read sovereigns of the most forged gold coins in the world. 

So my take on it is this. I invite all other members to comment please as I have only been in stacking/collecting for the last year. 

How to determine what you are buying is real (my thoughts)

* For silver -- Using a small neodymium magnet (cheap enough to buy on amazon prime) on a coin tilted at a 45 degree angle you will notice the motion of the magnet sliding down the coin is slower than if it has no silver content. In both cases the magnet DOES NOT stick to the coin. The higher the silver the content the slower the motion. i.e. Its hard to detect the diverence on a 0.5 silver coin compared to a British silver crown pre 1920's (0.925% silver content).  

* Silver & Gold - Chemical testing. Which I would not do, as can damage coin. 

* Checking sellers past history. If this is on ebay or TSF (The Silver Forum) you can see reviews and feedback. You can also see how long they have been trading for. The challenge as a buyer on TSF is when buying with PPFF (Friends and family Paypal) or direct money transfer which give you no protection financial. The benefit to the seller is they can offer you a better deal than paypal as they do not have a paypal's  paid protection version. So maybe consider offering to cover the 4% charge the seller would have to pay if you want the coin?

* Weighting the coin using a jewellers scale. This is something I learnt early on in the auction houses with all the silver deals coming through. A standard gold sovereign was standardised after 1817 and is 7.98 grams. Does it say 1890 on your coin and weight 5 grams? It's fake. A jewellers scale from amazon or ebay can be  worth it's weight in gold. 

* Were coins of the type you are buying produced in that year? If so how many? Some years are very common others are not. Some years during the war no gold soverigns were made is all focus was on the war efforts. Lets too consider that if you were to get a fake of any coin logic would suggest it is likely to be the ones of greatest value. This is when certification of coins, in particular for numismatic value should be obtained. Is the coin bullion (poor definition of image) , uncirculated (stamped image a few times), proof (stamped a few more times again to get the sharpest image)? I realise more and more as collector you need to know your coin and it's lineage in amazingly great accuracy. 

* Don't be buying silver (or gold) at cut throat prices (or even normal prices) from China on ebay.  Even with protection you will get it, need to check it, and then if you do get a refund you have lost time in the process. Time = work = real money. 

NOTE: Gold. At this time the only way to best determine if a gold coin is real is by weight, dimensions, and possible mainly so in the strength of past trading by the seller you are buying from. I have done this recently, high trading volumes, been doing for years, 100% great reviews, and they are in this forum (which I am getting to like more and more daily I must admit!). I have learnt that people that are prepared to pay for a service and usually more likely to respect and use that service appropriately (as they are paying). You still need to carry out due diligence but I think you will find you have less issues here on TSF than other sites. Seeing great deals on gold coins is good, but having a great deal on a coin from a seller with no trade history, or way to show reviews on ebay or amazon, leads to higher risk, especially when doing money transfers. Remember if the coin turns out to be made of tungsten (similar atomic number and thus weight to gold) how much did you loose, how many deals would you have to make to get your looses back? 

Something interesting I found on Kruggrand

https://www.orobel.biz/information/news/fakes-counterfakes-krugerrand

Coin tester. 100% accurate 

 

[Silverman2U]

1 hour ago, Pipers said:

This has been put on the forum many times, Chards have a lot of information on there site some of it on there old site.

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/fakes-forgeries-and-counterfeit-gold-coins-and-sovereigns/167

Thanks for the link. Gives more info on sovereigns. The idea about the magnet on the silver coin I learnt off a fellow silver stacker.

[swanky]

For claimed gold coins, verifying weight and size narrows material down to either gold or tungsten. Need a ping test to distinguish between those (gold pings nicely, tungsten thuds).

[Silverman2U]

8 hours ago, swanky said:

For claimed gold coins, verifying weight and size narrows material down to either gold or tungsten. Need a ping test to distinguish between those (gold pings nicely, tungsten thuds).

Is this where you spin the coin in the spot on a hard table top and wait till the end?

[Silverman2U]

I was always interested in how effective biting down on a coin was as you use may see in some old movies. 1) Damages coin and your teeth  2) I suspect a lot of metals are soft that would give you a false impression of being real gold. 

[swanky]

4 hours ago, Silverman2U said:

Is this where you spin the coin in the spot on a hard table top and wait till the end?

Maybe, but not what I do - that is rest coin horizontally on vertical finger tip then tap edge firmly with something hard.

[RacerCool]

I don't worry much about fake silver since I don't really buy the popular coins and rounds. I mostly buy older Mexican stuff or US dimes and half dollars. As far as I know those haven't been forged.

For gold, I weigh and measure thickness and diameter. I also give a good once-over, looking at it closely to see if anything looks funny.

For both I test with a magnet to see if they're magnetic. That's actually the very first thing I do.

[Au79]

For scientific test on PM, use a Precious Metal Verifier or Precious Metal  XRF Analyzer.

[Notafront4adragon]

5 hours ago, Au79 said:

For scientific test on PM, use a Precious Metal Verifier or Precious Metal  XRF Analyzer.

Those are very pricey and some just test the surface, so plated coins can fool them. If you really wanna be scientific, you need to add a specific gravity test.

7 hours ago, RacerCool said:

I don't worry much about fake silver since I don't really buy the popular coins and rounds. I mostly buy older Mexican stuff or US dimes and half dollars. As far as I know those haven't been forged.

Not quite the same, but Morgan Dollars are some of the most faked silver coins in the world, I would test everything unless I 100% know and trust seller. It's just sensible.

[Silverman2U]

9 hours ago, Au79 said:

For scientific test on PM, use a Precious Metal Verifier or Precious Metal  XRF Analyzer.

Yep. But not if your a non dealer. Just checked out those machines, they are like £6-10k right?

[Silverman2U]

4 hours ago, Notafront4adragon said:

Those are very pricey and some just test the surface, so plated coins can fool them. If you really wanna be scientific, you need to add a specific gravity test.

Not quite the same, but Morgan Dollars are some of the most faked silver coins in the world, I would test everything unless I 100% know and trust seller. It's just sensible.

Good points. Many thanks. 

[Au79]

12 minutes ago, Silverman2U said:

Yep. But not if your a non dealer. Just checked out those machines, they are like £6-10k right?

https://buysigmametalytics.com/products/sigma-metalytics-precious-metal-verifier-basic-set

[Notafront4adragon]

1 hour ago, Au79 said:

https://buysigmametalytics.com/products/sigma-metalytics-precious-metal-verifier-basic-set

That's a good price! Any idea what the shipping and duty is to get one into the UK?

[eppteink]

Anyone is familiar with the ping test? Ive download the app and it works like a charm.

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=se.brolinembedded.bulliontest&hl=en_US

[StackinJack]

22 hours ago, eppteink said:

Anyone is familiar with the ping test? Ive download the app and it works like a charm.

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=se.brolinembedded.bulliontest&hl=en_US

Well, I did read it from another forum member last week, he said he tested the app with the setting on a gold krugerrand and tested it with a silver eagle and it passed.
Just tested it myself with the setting also on a gold kruggerrand and tested with a silver 10 Guilder I had laying aroud...and it passed..so not really reliable unfortunately.

[eppteink]

2 minutes ago, StackinJack said:

Well, I did read it from another forum member last week, he said he tested the app with the setting on a gold krugerrand and tested it with a silver eagle and it passed.
Just tested it myself with the setting also on a gold kruggerrand and tested with a silver 10 Guilder I had laying aroud...and it passed..so not really reliable unfortunately.

Damn i did like 10 tests with dif coins and they were 100% accurate all the time. Another way to spot a fake is to realy magnify the coin and compare it to the oficial images. The fake will always be off on spacement, fonts,etc. Same for when u are shopping watches, even if the fake rolex cost 1k if you magnify it you will almost always spot something wrong.

[Bimetallic]

On 18/04/2020 at 07:04, Silverman2U said:

Yep. But not if your a non dealer. Just checked out those machines, they are like £6-10k right?

Negative. The Sigma Metalytics testers start at around $700 and get up to around $1,400.

[Bimetallic]

Do you know about the Fisch and similar products? They're coin balances that test both the dimensions of the coin and the weight. Very slick. They have built-in slots to check thickness, a round tray of the exact diameter, and then the balance feature that checks the weight.

The Fisch costs $169 and $259, depending on the model. Each model is for a couple of specific coins. There's a similar product, the Gold Coin Balance, that costs only $26, which is pretty incredible.

Fisch also makes the Ringer, which precisely tests the ring of the coin, and they claim it detects tungsten counterfeits. (Tungsten has nearly the exact density as gold.)

[Silverman2U]

8 hours ago, Bimetallic said:

Do you know about the Fisch and similar products? They're coin balances that test both the dimensions of the coin and the weight. Very slick. They have built-in slots to check thickness, a round tray of the exact diameter, and then the balance feature that checks the weight.

The Fisch costs $169 and $259, depending on the model. Each model is for a couple of specific coins. There's a similar product, the Gold Coin Balance, that costs only $26, which is pretty incredible.

Fisch also makes the Ringer, which precisely tests the ring of the coin, and they claim it detects tungsten counterfeits. (Tungsten has nearly the exact density as gold.)

Great stuff. Thanks for this. I like the gold coin balance. How accurate is it? Hmm. It does not appear to factor in if coin is too heavy. Fisch does. Either way your going to pay high stamp duty on that if bringing it in from the USA. I always factor in 60- 80% import tax based on past experience with U.K. customs! 

[Bimetallic]

1 hour ago, Silverman2U said:

Great stuff. Thanks for this. I like the gold coin balance. How accurate is it? Hmm. It does not appear to factor in if coin is too heavy. Fisch does. Either way your going to pay high stamp duty on that if bringing it in from the USA. I always factor in 60- 80% import tax based on past experience with U.K. customs! 

60 - 80%? What's that about? How do Britons afford anything? 

[Notafront4adragon]

18 minutes ago, Bimetallic said:

60 - 80%? What's that about? How do Britons afford anything? 

Well we used to have a strong pound...

Now who knows.

I play baseball (yes it exists in the UK, yes it's at a pretty good standard, yes I can name all the MLB teams, yes I know what a balk is and all the other questions americans will ask me) and trying to get decent kit is so expensive. 

I want a sigma metalytics or equivalent but will have to wait to physically go to America (actually was supposed to be there this month).

[Silverman2U]

6 hours ago, Bimetallic said:

60 - 80%? What's that about? How do Britons afford anything? 

I honestly don’t know. I am not a commercial seller. It use to be 15-25% then one day I got something small and they charged us around 60-80% of the value on collecting from post office. Got receipt too. Could not find a contact number or email, just collected. TBH for £30 tax I Just paid and accepted it as another middle man taking his extremely large cut.
 

I currently just buy from EU now, lol soon just UK I guess. If it gets really stupidly expensive for imports (like in NZ an isolate landmass) it maybe just time to retire to some where in the EU where it won’t be, albeit for 180 days a year as then along with all brits won’t be an EU citizen or resident (Policy current coming into play in France I know). 
 

We received a large package (few hundred LG’s) from USA for equipment a few years back it was undervalued, we then had UPS on the phone (the middle man) saying you have to pay us as we have paid for the consignment. If you want it you pay us, we want our money. Even then took a good 2 weeks to just get past customs. It only took 4 days from purchase to get into the country. Lol, you’d think it was NZ.  Sending anything like wood or feathers to NZ you may not even get it, it will be destroyed or you pay a potential hefty fee to spray it with insecticide. Sent a package years back with a lovely Harrods own brand wooden handle umbrella, package arrived, no umbrella. No info why, no one to call. Nothing. 
 

PS. If anyone knows of a contact number (for future reference) or sheet of what should be charged and how you can argue it please let me in on it. Many thanks.