Can we please address this RM Queue Scam?

[TheGoldSovereign]

So I really just wanted to put this out there for all the non-techs that don't understand how these things work, and point out that what the Mint is doing is at best a severe form of negligence and worst a breach of the Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 or likely many other regulations that didn't come up on google

• How many users do we think log in to buy a single coin at release, are we all really dumb enough to think it's millions? Personally I'm under the impression it may be approx. 10-20,000 on a good day.
• How many people buy Ed Sheeran concert tickets at release? We are talking about millions of people clambering for them.
• What does the RM not have that the ticket tout websites do? There is nothing, they all use a similar stack of frontend, webserver, APIs, database
• The RM can't process 10,000 requests at once and others can process a million+? 😆🤣

First come first serve ordering is not as simple as basic data delivery which can reach a virtually unlimited number of requests a second when scaled, but this is nowhere near a big enough level for them to need special queuing systems that don't even work, this is part of the scam in my opinion.

There is a severely incompetent team of developers running the website or it is an outright scam conjured by the higher level management to increase the price of items through fear of missing out. Creating false scarcity I believe is a criminal offence now, likely covered under these unfair trading regulations. We all know that they also sell 50%+ straight into trade for those so called "partners" to make guaranteed profit. There is also a VAT avoidance setup going on over there with these larger dealers.

Don't be duped.

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

Agree completely. On top of that I'd say their "register interest" marketing needs some scrutiny in light of the recent 2oz Queen Music Legends coin release. It just seems very wrong to me that they collected personal information (name and email address) for the promise of being informed about a coin that they were never going to let the general public have access to. The page was clear - you were registering interest for the 2oz silver proof, 2oz gold proof and 1kg gold proof. Come release day the only available coin was the 2oz silver proof since they sold all of the 2oz gold proof coins behind the scenes. I don't have a personal stake in this as I wouldn't have bought one of the 2oz gold coins given the chance but I imagine some would have and it seems very wrong to me that they collected information in exchange for release information for a coin that was never going to be released to the general public.

[Platinum]

I reckon it is indeed unlikely that millions are sitting by their screens, ready to reserve one or two coins. At best a few thousands (you got to factor in that many stackers don’t even know that you can buy directly from the mints themselves).

On the contrary, it is the bigger dealer-corporations who are doing just that, and they buy in bulk. The mints gets most of their products sold for a decent price to cower their costs + a small profit and the dealers are able to buy at a very low price that is then salted immensely on their webbsites.

Best part of it all? It works like a charm. Take for instance the 1 Oz Gold White Horse 2020 of the Queen’s Beasts series. They know it will sell because it is in the later part of a well established and popular series, and many collectors and even stackers will want to complete their sets. Every single coin is bought up at the mint and so people need to approach the dealers to basically pay a ”premium” on the actual premium. 

The nice part in this crow song is that there is little that can be done about this. The mints no doubt enjoy selling to big dealers who buy in bulk, hence securing the mint’s own balance sheet, and the dealers can act much like an oligopoly and cash in on the additional premiums and costs for buying from them - each party well aware that there is nothing the average Joe can prove or do about it.

 

[TheGoldSovereign]

15 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I reckon it is indeed unlikely that millions are sitting by their screens, ready to reserve one or two coins. At best a few thousands (you got to factor in that many stackers don’t even know that you can buy directly from the mints themselves).

On the contrary, it is the bigger dealer-corporations who are doing just that, and they buy in bulk. The mints gets most of their products sold for a decent price to cower their costs + a small profit and the dealers are able to buy at a very low price that is then salted immensely on their webbsites.

Best part of it all? It works like a charm. Take for instance the 1 Oz Gold White Horse 2020 of the Queen’s Beasts series. They know it will sell because it is in the later part of a well established and popular series, and many collectors and even stackers will want to complete their sets. Every single coin is bought up at the mint and so people need to approach the dealers to basically pay a ”premium” on the actual premium. 

The nice part in this crow song is that there is little that can be done about this. The mints no doubt enjoy selling to big dealers who buy in bulk, hence securing the mint’s own balance sheet, and the dealers can act much like an oligopoly and cash in on the additional premiums and costs for buying from them - each party well aware that there is nothing the average Joe can prove or do about it.

But these practices are against consumer protection laws, so I think there should be something done about it. Why should these larger dealers and the RM themselves be able to capitalise on misleading everyone?

I'll make the report and see what comes of it, personally I don't buy modern coins from the mint anyway, I'm just fed up with the dealers taking advantage.

[Becca]

Where as I see where you are coming from every big name on the high street does this under everyones noses you are not taking on the royal mint you are taking on the way business is done today. Trying to chip away at everest.

B

[Platinum]

I’m afraid I must agree with Becca. I do not like this situation either, but on the bright side I reckon all private customers are in the same boat. It’s mainly the big dealers who benefit from this.

[Becca]

22 minutes ago, Platinum said:

I’m afraid I must agree with Becca. I do not like this situation either, but on the bright side I reckon all private customers are in the same boat. It’s mainly the big dealers who benefit from this.

You dont need to be afraid there is help to be had 😂

[Platinum]

What a reLIEf 😊

[Oldun]

Supply and demand brought down to right now right here levels. Then  chuck in the internet immediate access to everything along with a good big dollop of algorythms that know the optimum levels of how to maximise things and you were warned years ago.......;)

 

And even then, personal contacts with the RM and computer tricks to jump the Mint created queues for the masses still exist.

 

[Guest]

On 24/02/2020 at 09:02, TheGoldSovereign said:

So I really just wanted to put this out there for all the non-techs that don't understand how these things work, and point out that what the Mint is doing is at best a severe form of negligence and worst a breach of the Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 or likely many other regulations that didn't come up on google

• How many users do we think log in to buy a single coin at release, are we all really dumb enough to think it's millions? Personally I'm under the impression it may be approx. 10-20,000 on a good day.
• How many people buy Ed Sheeran concert tickets at release? We are talking about millions of people clambering for them.
• What does the RM not have that the ticket tout websites do? There is nothing, they all use a similar stack of frontend, webserver, APIs, database
• The RM can't process 10,000 requests at once and others can process a million+? 😆🤣

First come first serve ordering is not as simple as basic data delivery which can reach a virtually unlimited number of requests a second when scaled, but this is nowhere near a big enough level for them to need special queuing systems that don't even work, this is part of the scam in my opinion.

There is a severely incompetent team of developers running the website or it is an outright scam conjured by the higher level management to increase the price of items through fear of missing out. Creating false scarcity I believe is a criminal offence now, likely covered under these unfair trading regulations. We all know that they also sell 50%+ straight into trade for those so called "partners" to make guaranteed profit. There is also a VAT avoidance setup going on over there with these larger dealers.

Don't be duped.

I think you are being very very harsh on the trade buyers and their guaranteed profit. Those same trade buyers are there for the Royal Mint for 90% of the releases that make a guaranteed loss too. They often agree to take volumes of coins that they later have to job out at a big discount. I am not crying for the trade but it is not nearly as simple as this. From what I have seen RM has multi layers of marketing and each has a certain stock availability and many popular items are NOT at all available to some of these channels.

The channels seem to be:

Web Retail Sales via the RM web site
International Dealer Sales for Japan and other strong pro new release markets
International Distribution Sales (to distributors who then sell to dealers)
National Main Dealers (Westminster etc..) that do regular promotion and high volume sales
Mint to order and large volume USA dealers for jointly made products or special edition products (Apmex etc)
Special Editions of regular products sold via different channels (MCM etc for graded versions)
Mint Marque Club (mid tier UK and International retail buyers who spend a lot and provide support to the mint)
High Net Worth Buyers (high tier buyers of coins in the £10-200,000 per coin market)
Telephone Sales via the general sales line
Telephone Sales via customer service representatives

Managing these channels means that sometimes stock is available to some channels but not all and may mean that items are made specifically for sale via particular channels and some channels may have no or limited access. I think most buyers who really want something can find a way to get it and it seems the buyers who try the hardest usually end up more successful than buyers who do not focus and pickup only at the tail end when the core buying/arrangements are already done.

 

[Martlet]

If they are trying to drum up demand, you'd expect them to be more reliable and consistent with email marketing.  They failed to notify me of the Dinosaur release until 10am, nothing yet for Queen's Beast. 

[BrumChris]

4 hours ago, Martlet said:

If they are trying to drum up demand, you'd expect them to be more reliable and consistent with email marketing.  They failed to notify me of the Dinosaur release until 10am, nothing yet for Queen's Beast. 

Indeed. I've given up and look every Monday at 9. Luckily someone on here tends to post as well.

[Shinus73]

 

37 minutes ago, BrumChris said:

Indeed. I've given up and look every Monday at 9. Luckily someone on here tends to post as well.

Next Monday:

https://www.royalmint.com/register-interest/james-bond/

[Kman]

I think the "over 65% sold" etc messages are better hyping tool than a queue 

I would guess a queue is more likely to lose you customers than build hype 

[Seth]

I'm struggling to see what the issue is.  In my indusry it's very very common for anything from 10% to 30% of the tickets to the shows to be ''sold'' before the tour has been publicly mentioned/confirmed, yet alone the dates, countries and cities we're preforming in, and I'm not talking about ticket touts buying up tickets, but things like sponsors, promoters, even the venue itself - venues don't book preformers we book and pay for the use of the venues, partners - not spouses, partners and families but the people who organise for us to preform in their area who sort out the paper work and red tape, or even the companies providing us with our accommodation, flighs, companies that are using us as part of a promotion, like radio stations handing out fee tickets to caller number 7, if the concert is being filmed for release on DVD, Blu Ray, or Digital Download for companies like Sony to give out tickets to companies who purchase advertisuing time on whichever channel they're trying to get more advertising for while we're touring the region that channel is broadcast in.

[TheGoldSovereign]

9 hours ago, Seth said:

I'm struggling to see what the issue is.  In my indusry it's very very common for anything from 10% to 30% of the tickets to the shows to be ''sold'' before the tour has been publicly mentioned/confirmed, yet alone the dates, countries and cities we're preforming in, and I'm not talking about ticket touts buying up tickets, but things like sponsors, promoters, even the venue itself - venues don't book preformers we book and pay for the use of the venues, partners - not spouses, partners and families but the people who organise for us to preform in their area who sort out the paper work and red tape, or even the companies providing us with our accommodation, flighs, companies that are using us as part of a promotion, like radio stations handing out fee tickets to caller number 7, if the concert is being filmed for release on DVD, Blu Ray, or Digital Download for companies like Sony to give out tickets to companies who purchase advertisuing time on whichever channel they're trying to get more advertising for while we're touring the region that channel is broadcast in.

My issue is creating fake scarcity, this isn't a legal trading practice.

[Melon]

They don't have to sell to us. Personally I think most of the RM coins are over-hyped and not worth the money. But the great news is ultimately you have the power to e-walk away and not pay for them 😄