Goldsilver.be refuse to send my order?

[blackadder]

5 minutes ago, StackerNoob said:

Oh I know. It’s the reason I keep coming back, I love this place. I happen to have a PhD myself. I’m simpny saying that probably 10 members have commented in a typically predatory lawyer type of way, the kind that don’t care for the the circumstances, but only for finding the one clause that will mean they win. 

End of the day, no matter how you frame it, this was an astoundingly poor show from gs.be from the start.

Perhaps if they dealt with him with better customer service,Explained there was a cancellation fee to a price more around which you stated in your other post.None of this thread would of happened,and thus a possibility for them to lose even more customers and money then what they claim he owes them

[airmac]

41 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i managed to get an LLM from Cardiff University - so i can call myself a lawyer but i am on my settee so not an armchair one.

The Silver Forum has some pretty amazing people as members - pilots, lawyers, merchant bankers, doctors, dentists, university lecturers, engineers.... never underestimate who is posting.

What I'd like to understand and know if its right. Is as far as I understood they withheld the majority of his order til payment of cancellation fees. That would men they are holding thousands of euros til payment of 390 euros. Isn't that though extortian? I could understand witholding the amount they say is owed in goods til payment but like 10 times the amount?

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, airmac said:

What I'd like to understand and know if its right. Is as far as I understood they withheld the majority of his order til payment of cancellation fees. That would men they are holding thousands of euros til payment of 390 euros. Isn't that though extortian? I could understand witholding the amount they say is owed in goods til payment but like 10 times the amount?

According to them he has not paid his bill. Would you send the goods if the bill was not paid? It is not extortion as they are simply asking for what they believe they are entitled to. Demanding what you are entitled to and not completing the order until it is paid is not extortion - it is sensible business practice. As it is they have made a mistake in their English terms and conditions which i have suggested he goes back to them with and gets them to drop the demand for the 390€. It could be the price of silver dropped in the time he made the order and they were able to sell the monster boxes - it was a decent size order so i can well imagine that happened so what they are doing is reasonable but they made a mistake and he should use it to get out of paying them the extra money.

[airmac]

7 minutes ago, sixgun said:

According to them he has not paid his bill. Would you send the goods if the bill was not paid? It is not extortion as they are simply asking for what they believe they are entitled to. Demanding what you are entitled to and not completing the order until it is paid is not extortion - it is sensible business practice. As it is they have made a mistake in their English terms and conditions which i have suggested he goes back to them with and gets them to drop the demand for the 390€. It could be the price of silver dropped in the time he made the order and they were able to sell the monster boxes - it was a decent size order so i can well imagine that happened so what they are doing is reasonable but they made a mistake and he should use it to get out of paying them the extra money.

Its The amount they are withholding that intrigues me. They say he owes 390 euros. Ok, I can guess they figured that out somehow, but if I understood correctly from OP they only sent like 100 euros worth from his order and are holding 900 of euros back til he pays 390. That is what I don't understand as being correct. If they went and sent all except the 390 I could understand but they only sent a hundred euros worth and Kept majority of goods til bill settled.

[zittergie]

First thing you need to do is to protest the claim of €390. "Factuur protesteren".  Best way to do this is to send this protest as a registered post (always keep a copy of the registered post).  By doing so you are protected by Belgian Law for as long as the protest last for the claim of  €390,-.  If you do not make an official protest, it means that you accept the claim.

Second thing to do, to keep the time you invest to a minimum is to make a contra offer. High enough to be a fair amount if it ever makes it to court, but low enough for you to live with.  I personally would suggest €25,- euro.  Give them a time limit to react. I they do not react, you pay the €25,-  They have to deliver the rest of the shipment free of other cost.

If they do react and keep holding on to their claim, you will need to open an official claim against them.

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, airmac said:

Its The amount they are withholding that intrigues me. They say he owes 390 euros. Ok, I can guess they figured that out somehow, but if I understood correctly from OP they only sent like 20 coins from his order and are holding thousand of euros back til he pays 390. That is what I don't understand as being correct. If they went and sent all except the 390 I could understand but they only sent a few hundred euros worth and Kept majority of goods til bill settled.

 According to European law as it really stands he breached contract with them. There was no way they were likely to get the cancellation charge from him, so they tell him there will be a cancellation charge - at the moment they told him they could not know what it was - that could only be calculated when they managed to sell the monster boxes of silver again. His name is on their database - they figure he will be back. He comes back and puts an order in. They get payment for the order but there is still the cancellation fee owing. Personally i would hold all the silver back - we do not send until all debts are paid - i don't understand why a few coins have been sent. They are demanding payment for what they are owed- not sending the goods before discharging all debts is normal practice. They are demanding what is rightfully theirs. Now at some point doing this would become unreasonable and they would send the coins minus the value of all debts. Debts often need more than soft peddling. They could threaten to escalate it to court but they figure if they hold onto the silver he will settle. The option is for him to say i will settle all debts with the silver coinage. Likely they will then send the order minus some of the coins. They are not demanding more than they are entitled to - is there extortion. 'The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.' Well they have a right - he owes them money and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to pay up.

[sixgun]

5 minutes ago, zittergie said:

First thing you need to do is to protest the claim of €390. "Factuur protesteren".  Best way to do this is to send this protest as a registered post (always keep a copy of the registered post).  By doing so you are protected by Belgian Law for as long as the protest last for the claim of  €390,-.  If you do not make an official protest, it means that you accept the claim.

Second thing to do, to keep the time you invest to a minimum is to make a contra offer. High enough to be a fair amount if it ever makes it to court, but low enough for you to live with.  I personally would suggest €25,- euro.  Give them a time limit to react. I they do not react, you pay the €25,-  They have to deliver the rest of the shipment free of other cost.

If they do react and keep holding on to their claim, you will need to open an official claim against them.

i would say he should do as you suggest - make a goodwill offer of 25€ without prejudice and point out he entered the contract relying on the English terms and conditions which gave him the right to cancel the order within 14 days without penalty. No-one loses face - goldsilver.be get 25€ and think they have won and he gets his silver.

[airmac]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

 According to European law as it really stands he breached contract with them. There was no way they were likely to get the cancellation charge from him, so they tell him there will be a cancellation charge - at the moment they told him they could not know what it was - that could only be calculated when they managed to sell the monster boxes of silver again. His name is on their database - they figure he will be back. He comes back and puts an order in. They get payment for the order but there is still the cancellation fee owing. Personally i would hold all the silver back - we do not send until all debts are paid - i don't understand why a few coins have been sent. They are demanding payment for what they are owed- not sending the goods before discharging all debts is normal practice. They are demanding what is rightfully theirs. Now at some point doing this would become unreasonable and they would send the coins minus the value of all debts. Debts often need more than soft peddling. They could threaten to escalate it to court but they figure if they hold onto the silver he will settle. The option is for him to say i will settle all debts with the silver coinage. Likely they will then send the order minus some of the coins. They are not demanding more than they are entitled to - is there extortion. 'The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right.' Well they have a right - he owes them money and he doesn't seem to be in a hurry to pay up.

Wouldn't they have had to send him a bill after they had sold the monsterbox? Instead of simply not letting him settle his debt when notified and thus maybe have them adding additional costs for nonpayment of bill on time? I am no lawyer and so am actually really interested in the answers. Like in Luxembourg, you do not have a debt until a bill is sent and get additional charges as time for payment increases.

Could it be 390 euros because they have added additional charges for nonpayment before he was even advised of what was due?

[sixgun]

Just now, airmac said:

Wouldn't they have had to send him a bill after they had sold the monsterbox? Instead of simply not letting him settle his debt when notified and thus maybe have them adding additional costs for nonpayment of bill on time? I am no lawyer and so am actually really interested in the answers. Like in Luxembourg, you do not have a debt until a bill is sent and get additional charges as time for payment increases.

Could it be 390 euros because they have added additional charges for nonpayment before he was even advised of what was due?

i am not sure where this 390€ comes from - it is a long thread - he should be sent a bill which details the charges. i took it as there was an amount stated they had billed hi,m. If there has been no bill how is he expected to pay it? They have no right to withhold his silver if there has been no legal bill. Perhaps the OP can help us out. Now we have extortion -

[Lowlow]

12 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i would say he should do as you suggest - make a goodwill offer of 25€ without prejudice and point out he entered the contract relying on the English terms and conditions which gave him the right to cancel the order within 14 days without penalty. No-one loses face - goldsilver.be get 25€ and think they have won and he gets his silver.

Edit .. that sounds reasonable. lol.

[Kleiner]

10 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i am not sure where this 390€ comes from - it is a long thread - he should be sent a bill which details the charges. i took it as there was an amount stated they had billed hi,m. If there has been no bill how is he expected to pay it? They have no right to withhold his silver if there has been no legal bill. Perhaps the OP can help us out. Now we have extortion -

I don't know what this 390 euro comes from either. I woke up this morning and saw this:
I haven't been sent any bill before. Got this "charge" today.

[airmac]

7 minutes ago, sixgun said:

i am not sure where this 390€ comes from - it is a long thread - he should be sent a bill which details the charges. i took it as there was an amount stated they had billed hi,m. If there has been no bill how is he expected to pay it? They have no right to withhold his silver if there has been no legal bill. Perhaps the OP can help us out. Now we have extortion -

My understanding of timeline was: He ordered, then cancelled/changed order and was told there would be damages. Orders later again at some point and they accept order and only deliver 1/10 of value til he pays damages. Now he gets informed there are 390 euros damage and he will only receive rest value of 900 euro order after payment of 390. But that only in email and not an actual bill. I'm willing to stand corrected if wrong but this is how I understood the whole thing

 

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Added 0 minutes later...

1 minute ago, Kleiner said:

I don't know what this 390 euro comes from either. I woke up this morning and saw this:

  

 

Did you at anytime receive a bill from them for order cancellation?

[Kleiner]

52 minutes ago, airmac said:

My understanding of timeline was: He ordered, then cancelled/changed order and was told there would be damages. Orders later again at some point and they accept order and only deliver 1/10 of value til he pays damages. Now he gets informed there are 390 euros damage and he will only receive rest value of 900 euro order after payment of 390. But that only in email and not an actual bill. I'm willing to stand corrected if wrong but this is how I understood the whole thing

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Added 0 minutes later...

Did you at anytime receive a bill from them for order cancellation?

No, if you mean the time between they cancelled the order and the new order, no absolutely not.

I got the "charge" bill first today.

[sixgun]

What do you see when you click on the 390€ row?

[Kleiner]

Just now, sixgun said:

What do you see when you click on the 390€ row?

 

[sixgun]

Well there is the bill -  now you want it explained. But also go straight to the recommendation earlier from the Belgium member. You do not accept this bill. It needs to be explained. You owe nothing - you relied on their terms and conditions in English which say you can cancel within 14 days without penalty but as a goodwill gesture you will offer 25€ without prejudice and expect your silver to be sent immediately.

[airmac]

Just now, sixgun said:

Well there is the bill -  now you want it explained. But also go straight to the recommendation earlier from the Belgium member. You do not accept this bill. It needs to be explained. You owe nothing - you relied on their terms and conditions in English which say you can cancel within 14 days without penalty but as a goodwill gesture you will offer 25€ without prejudice and expect your silver to be sent immediately.

Doesn't it make any difference that the bill only suddenly gets issued after witholding goods and threats of lawyers? Or is that irrelevant?

[sixgun]

7 minutes ago, airmac said:

Doesn't it make any difference that the bill only suddenly gets issued after witholding goods and threats of lawyers? Or is that irrelevant?

It is bad practice - the bill should have been issued when the charge arose, back in July. He was informed there would be a charge but this charge could have been calculated sometime before a bill was issued. We can see the bank wire was on 7th October and this compensation charge has been issued on 13th October. i think there has been a very recent realisation there is this unpaid charge - so they have issued the bill now. It doesn't make any difference to the breach of contract and compensation.

i don't see this will get him off the hook but highlighting the error in the website which they say is the terms and conditions could well get this charge waived.

[airmac]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

It is bad practice - the bill should have been issued when the charge arose, back in July. He was informed there would be a charge but this charge could have been calculated sometime before a bill was issued. We can see the bank wire was on 7th October and this compensation charge has been issued on 13th October. i think there has been a very recent realisation there is this unpaid charge - so they have issued the bill now. It doesn't make any difference to the breach of contract and compensation.

Thanks, for patiently explaining to me

[sovereignsteve]

I've read through the whole thread but can't remember if anyone actually pointed this out:

Do they say anywhere in their T&C that they will charge a "compensation" or "damages" charge in the event of cancellation? and if so how they will calculate said charge?

If we ignore the translation error in the English version, what they actually say is there is no right to cancel yet they happily did so. Surely to do this without specifying the actual amount they would charge to cancel would be deemed unfair and unreasonable and as such probably illegal.

If they don't specify the charge in their T&C then they are relying on what damages a court would impose for breach of contract, yet they presume to do this without recourse to the law.

Surely it's not enough to merely say "I've cancelled you last order, please keep in mind that a cancellation generates costs and thus damages for GS.BE" without actually stating what they are and invoicing for them there and then? and to not inform you that we will be making a charge for these (at some indeterminate time in the future) but not telling you what they are until your next order so we can hold your coins to ransom is positively outrageous!

What they should have done is say "yes we will cancel your order if you pay the cancellation/penaly charge of XXX and if you don't pay we will chase you through the courts and never deal with you again."

[Kleiner]

7 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I've read through the whole thread but can't remember if anyone actually pointed this out:

Do they say anywhere in their T&C that they will charge a "compensation" or "damages" charge in the event of cancellation? and if so how they will calculate said charge?

If we ignore the translation error in the English version, what they actually say is there is no right to cancel yet they happily did so. Surely to do this without specifying the actual amount they would charge to cancel would be deemed unfair and unreasonable and as such probably illegal.

If they don't specify the charge in their T&C then they are relying on what damages a court would impose for breach of contract, yet they presume to do this without recourse to the law.

Surely it's not enough to merely say "I've cancelled you last order, please keep in mind that a cancellation generates costs and thus damages for GS.BE" without actually stating what they are and invoicing for them there and then? and to not inform you that we will be making a charge for these (at some indeterminate time in the future) but not telling you what they are until your next order so we can hold your coins to ransom is positively outrageous!

 What they should have done is say "yes we will cancel your order if you pay the cancellation/penaly charge of XXX and if you don't pay we will chase you through the courts and never deal with you again."

This is what I have been trying to explain the whole time.

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, sovereignsteve said:

I've read through the whole thread but can't remember if anyone actually pointed this out:

Do they say anywhere in their T&C that they will charge a "compensation" or "damages" charge in the event of cancellation? and if so how they will calculate said charge?

If we ignore the translation error in the English version, what they actually say is there is no right to cancel yet they happily did so. Surely to do this without specifying the actual amount they would charge to cancel would be deemed unfair and unreasonable and as such probably illegal.

If they don't specify the charge in their T&C then they are relying on what damages a court would impose for breach of contract, yet they presume to do this without recourse to the law.

Surely it's not enough to merely say "I've cancelled you last order, please keep in mind that a cancellation generates costs and thus damages for GS.BE" without actually stating what they are and invoicing for them there and then? and to not inform you that we will be making a charge for these (at some indeterminate time in the future) but not telling you what they are until your next order so we can hold your coins to ransom is positively outrageous!

What they should have done is say "yes we will cancel your order if you pay the cancellation/penaly charge of XXX and if you don't pay we will chase you through the courts and never deal with you again."

i cannot find anything that mentions damages - so there is no indication how these would be calculated - they could potentially be arbitrary and so unfair.

There was a request to alter the order - this would be a request to terminate the order and instate a new order. On the Bulllion by Post website you will see this.

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/info/terms-and-conditions/

4. You are committed to your order or offer at the time it is placed, which is when a contract is formed and you are then liable for the cost of any goods or services you have requested.

5. There is no statutory right to return or cancel an order once placed under the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2004. The goods we supply are dependent on fluctuations in financial markets.

You can however request that we terminate an order you have placed in some circumstances – this is referred to in the terms and conditions as a request to use our termination service.

If you do choose to terminate an order prior to despatch/collection you will be charged for any fall in the underlying metal price for the goods from when the order was placed to when it was terminated, along with a termination fee.

Here they say you will be liable for any fall in the underlying metal price between the time or order and termination plus a termination fee. There is no such stated on the goldsilver.be website. In general if a party to a contract suffers losses due to a breach by the other party, they are entitled to compensation for those losses. It would be interesting to know exactly when the order was made and the decision to cancel was - it may be in the thread somewhere.

So there is no indication there will be a charge - just you have no right to cancel (which does not mean you cannot cancel - you just don't have a right to). There is a statement at the top of the page you cannot cancel and then it says you can - if there is conflict it will go in favour of the customer.

The request to alter the order to a lesser amount would have mitigated the potential damages to goldsilver.be but they did not give the customer that opportunity.

So there is nothing in the contract about a charge or damages.
They did not attempt to limit the losses by taking a lesser order.
They have not explain the calculation of any losses.
There is ambiguity in the terms due to the mistranslation.
They said there would be a charge after the fact.
They did not bill the charge, specify it at any point until it appeared on the account page.

i am sure if can think of my problems with this.
 

[Prometheus]

 Basically you ordered something you couldn't pay and cancelled it. So now they want you to pay their costs back, wich is easy now because you payed for another order... Nothing to do with bad customer service if you ask me, unless you were a trusted longtime customer. 

[vand]

wow, what a sorry state of affairs.

Firstly, you were stupid to place a £9k order without the funds IN YOUR ACCOUNT to pay for it.

Secondly, you were also stupid to block order that much as a matter of principle even if you did have the money - I keep emphasizing that monthly cost averaging is a far better way to go about things, because it instils good financial discipline.

 

That said, GS.be should treat all orders identically in my view regardless of any past history between parties. If they didn't want to do business with you after the first cancellation they should have just made that clear and blacklisted you. What they are now doing is tantamount to customer blackmail. It's like they're $rewing you over because you $crewed them over.. tit for tat. Unprofessional, but I guess the business owner takes things a bit too personally at times.

 

As with plenty of others, I've never had any probs with them, but that's because I've never messed them around and have always been very clear about what I wanted and always, always paid promptly.

[StackingItAll]

Interesting thread I think both parties are in the wrong here and that old saying of two wrongs dont make a right stands firm. You should never ever place an order of PMs and then even attempt to cancel or change said order it's the law of buying PMs. If it was the stock market you could be charged with a serious crime same with commodities. However they cannot wait until a second order to decide to charge you a compensation fee that is ridiculous they should have blacklisted you immediately and banned you from further purchases. If they chose to accept a new order then they have zero right to then hold you to ransom for a previous order got nothing to do with it at all i.e new order new set of laws only for that order. I am pretty disgusted reading the verbal abuse you have had from them swearing at customers is a huge no no in any circumstance and for that alone I wouldn't put an order near them. Going back to a previous point the fact they are holding your order until compensation is received actually nulls any point they have as they are doing exactly same thing they have an issue with the prices could and have changed since you placed the order they can't do that. It states that they might ship in different packages which is fair and understandable but this is not a case of the item is to heavy for one package it is blatant blackmail for a different order. You do deserve to be banned from using their services again and it's what I would do if I was them but if I had accepted your new order I would honour it and not even bring the previous one into question I would deal with it separately. I hope both parties can resolve this amicably as mentioned before people will read this and decide it is not worth the hassle of using them just over this thread alone. Anyway at this point I'm just rambling good morning all have a great Sunday.