Any Bullion dealers here to confirm some reporting questions?

[RickListon]

Hey, looking to get into buying gold myself as the price keeps on rising, especially recently.

After reading up about buying Gold, lots of Bullion dealers state they report purchases over £5,000 / £10,000 in multiple orders to HMRC? 

However, on other threads, I have read thats for dealers to report themselves as traders to HMRC...

Can anyone confirm which is true?

Thank you in advance, 

[Bratnia]

Both. Dealers have to register with HMRC. Dealers have to take anti money laundering measures ... record name, address, id (passport/driving licence) ...etc. of anyone who buys/sells more than £5K/year with the dealership, even if in smaller amounts several visits/trades ... so commonly dealers always ask for/record that data. i.e. there are multiple rule sets for HMRC/VAT/AML that have to be complied with.

Anti privacy is rife nowadays. Having details of for instance how much/when you bought/accumulated gold, and a photo and your name/address is wide open to being sold on to the black market. It's not even as though that data is secure, the state often loses large amounts of data. The concept is to ultimately have every penny accounted for, for each individual, where money was obtained from and spent, that alongside facial and number plate recognition technology, internet and calls, geolocation etc. enables each inmate in the open prison to be closely monitored, and for micro-fines to be deployed. You crossed a crossing before the green-man - your electronic money account has been fined £50. You've bought too much red meat this week ... fined £100. As part of the drive to that state control all banks have been threatened to report all suspicious transactions, or else be fined, maybe lose their licence - the obvious outcome is that banks report all transactions - as desired by the state.

[Gordy]

13 hours ago, RickListon said:

Hey, looking to get into buying gold myself as the price keeps on rising, especially recently.

After reading up about buying Gold, lots of Bullion dealers state they report purchases over £5,000 / £10,000 in multiple orders to HMRC? 

However, on other threads, I have read thats for dealers to report themselves as traders to HMRC...

Can anyone confirm which is true?

Thank you in advance, 

simple mate, get a premium membership on here and buy on here, its cheaper

[RickListon]

12 hours ago, Bratnia said:

Both. Dealers have to register with HMRC. Dealers have to take anti money laundering measures ... record name, address, id (passport/driving licence) ...etc. of anyone who buys/sells more than £5K/year with the dealership, even if in smaller amounts several visits/trades ... so commonly dealers always ask for/record that data. i.e. there are multiple rule sets for HMRC/VAT/AML that have to be complied with.

Anti privacy is rife nowadays. Having details of for instance how much/when you bought/accumulated gold, and a photo and your name/address is wide open to being sold on to the black market. It's not even as though that data is secure, the state often loses large amounts of data. The concept is to ultimately have every penny accounted for, for each individual, where money was obtained from and spent, that alongside facial and number plate recognition technology, internet and calls, geolocation etc. enables each inmate in the open prison to be closely monitored, and for micro-fines to be deployed. You crossed a crossing before the green-man - your electronic money account has been fined £50. You've bought too much red meat this week ... fined £100. As part of the drive to that state control all banks have been threatened to report all suspicious transactions, or else be fined, maybe lose their licence - the obvious outcome is that banks report all transactions - as desired by the state.

Yeah super annoying how everything is so tracked now, can't enjoy any privacy anymore. I bought a small amount and was still asked to show my passport, and utility bill... Made me want to cancel my order... 

48 minutes ago, Gordy said:

simple mate, get a premium membership on here and buy on here, its cheaper

Will look into it, cheers pal. Is it safe to do so on here?

[Darr3nG]

3 minutes ago, RickListon said:

Is it safe to do so on here?

99.9% positive feedback on over 54,000 transactions...

Have a look here: [https://www.thesilverforum.com/feedback/]

[RickListon]

8 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

99.9% positive feedback on over 54,000 transactions...

Have a look here: [https://www.thesilverforum.com/feedback/]

Amazing, thank you for that!

[Gordy]

32 minutes ago, RickListon said:

Yeah super annoying how everything is so tracked now, can't enjoy any privacy anymore. I bought a small amount and was still asked to show my passport, and utility bill... Made me want to cancel my order... 

Will look into it, cheers pal. Is it safe to do so on here?

oh yeah, £1,000's change hands on here daily, buy off established sellers and you'll be fine

[Bratnia]

Be mindful that HMRC/state do also record online transactions (CONNECT system), that is being enhanced with AI technology. And also have visibility of the financial transaction/money movement. So not much different to having to show your passport - just they already have a copy of its content/picture.

[Bratnia]

A dealership may ask/record whether you're buying gold for someone else, even if so you might say no, and then later opt to privately sell that gold for 0% gain/loss on to another shortly thereafter. i.e. end up with gold bought in someone else's name and address/id, along with additional private sale/purchase/transfer records. For self insured/storage security reasons that might be good practice, no record of photo/id/address of where the gold might be being stored, but does leave the purchaser who used their ID to buy the gold potentially exposed to risks. Thinking along the lines of two brothers, one buys the gold using their ID/address, and then passes/sells that gold on to their brother who then stores it at their separate/different address. If HMRC have records of transactions/gold purchases stolen/lost and a thief visits the brother who purchased the gold in their name, opening the safe when a sharp pencil is held up to a loved ones eye would reveal a sale record/note ... no gold, sale proceeds ... spent, just a couple of grand in cash within the safe.

The UK has transitioned to where it cares little for citizens safety, more a case nowadays of buyer beware, the state gives illegal migrants more care/security than the population those illegal migrants mix into even though they may have past criminal records ...etc. Very much a case of having to best secure ones own safety/security. Call the Police and they might be able to book you in to attend in several days time, if at all. Or if they do attend they send out maybe a pair of barely five foot tall WPC's that can do little if confronted with a gang of six foot burly beasts. 

[RickListon]

7 hours ago, Gordy said:

oh yeah, £1,000's change hands on here daily, buy off established sellers and you'll be fine

Awesome to know, wish I waited and purchased from the folks here!

[RickListon]

2 hours ago, Bratnia said:

A dealership may ask/record whether you're buying gold for someone else, even if so you might say no, and then later opt to privately sell that gold for 0% gain/loss on to another shortly thereafter. i.e. end up with gold bought in someone else's name and address/id, along with additional private sale/purchase/transfer records. For self insured/storage security reasons that might be good practice, no record of photo/id/address of where the gold might be being stored, but does leave the purchaser who used their ID to buy the gold potentially exposed to risks. Thinking along the lines of two brothers, one buys the gold using their ID/address, and then passes/sells that gold on to their brother who then stores it at their separate/different address. If HMRC have records of transactions/gold purchases stolen/lost and a thief visits the brother who purchased the gold in their name, opening the safe when a sharp pencil is held up to a loved ones eye would reveal a sale record/note ... no gold, sale proceeds ... spent, just a couple of grand in cash within the safe.

The UK has transitioned to where it cares little for citizens safety, more a case nowadays of buyer beware, the state gives illegal migrants more care/security than the population those illegal migrants mix into even though they may have past criminal records ...etc. Very much a case of having to best secure ones own safety/security. Call the Police and they might be able to book you in to attend in several days time, if at all. Or if they do attend they send out maybe a pair of barely five foot tall WPC's that can do little if confronted with a gang of six foot burly beasts. 

Appreciate the insight. And yes, spot on there, I am worried about my ID being linked to the gold purchase falling into the wrong hands... So many instances where these large organisations have failed to protect customer identity. 

[MBTPSilver]

I'm not aware of any dealers that actively report transactions. We are legally required to verify customers under the VAT-free investment gold notice, section 7, records to be kept - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gold-acquisitions-imports-investments-and-vat-notice-70121#sect7

If HMRC/police come to a dealer with the proper data access request the dealer will then hand those details over, but no dealer should be going to HMRC etc at the end of each year and giving them a list of all the transactions etc. There are also AML and KYC bits that help protect the dealer and customers, but again don't require pro-active reporting.

[kimchi]

15 minutes ago, MBTPSilver said:

I'm not aware of any dealers that actively report transactions. We are legally required to verify customers under the VAT-free investment gold notice, section 7, records to be kept - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gold-acquisitions-imports-investments-and-vat-notice-70121#sect7

If HMRC/police come to a dealer with the proper data access request the dealer will then hand those details over, but no dealer should be going to HMRC etc at the end of each year and giving them a list of all the transactions etc. There are also AML and KYC bits that help protect the dealer and customers, but again don't require pro-active reporting.

Isn't the time limit for keeping records six years?

[MBTPSilver]

Yes, a minimum of 6 years, section 7.7 -

 

[JohnA1]

The less they know, the better.

Anything you give them, can (and will) be used against you under circumstances that suit somebody else's interests

Why share private data?

[RickListon]

On 23/04/2024 at 10:46, MBTPSilver said:

I'm not aware of any dealers that actively report transactions. We are legally required to verify customers under the VAT-free investment gold notice, section 7, records to be kept - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gold-acquisitions-imports-investments-and-vat-notice-70121#sect7

If HMRC/police come to a dealer with the proper data access request the dealer will then hand those details over, but no dealer should be going to HMRC etc at the end of each year and giving them a list of all the transactions etc. There are also AML and KYC bits that help protect the dealer and customers, but again don't require pro-active reporting.

Thanks for clearing this up, I was mainly confused about this. I had to verify my purchase by showing ID/Proof of address, so was wondering where and why this information is required. 

[Bratnia]

On 23/04/2024 at 17:58, JohnA1 said:

The less they know, the better.

Anything you give them, can (and will) be used against you under circumstances that suit somebody else's interests

Why share private data?

Any gold, held by anyone, even if bought via the internet, and without a audit trail is at risk of being confiscated, as the proceeds of illicit activities or smuggling.  If HMRC inspect a dealers records that will lead them onto individuals who if in turn they are investigated may very well lead to a prize of confiscation. HMRC manual even indicates that if you are the unwitting holder of smuggled gold ... its confiscated and as such each purchase you make should include questioning of how/where it was sourced/funded, name, address ...etc. Any claim of gold having been lost and if it is ever found again ... may very well not be the finders gold, instead being claimed by the Crown or others (museums).

As should anyone who makes large sales/purchases of over 10K Euros value (even in multiple smaller amounts and across multiple family members) consider whether they need to register as a high value trader (that costs around £300/year - that helps fund anti-money-laundering activities). Or again potentially fall foul of the law. Perhaps a claim that you didn't register and so were up to no good and your gold (and other wealth/assets) confiscated as the proceeds of illicit activities.

The UK seems to be transitioning ever closer to a assumption of guilty until you can prove otherwise state and where that state can financially benefit from pursuits/confiscations. Buy a single paper roll of 10 one ounce gold Britannia coins costing £17K of whatever from a dealership who is later inspected and their records having you also investigated and potentially having that gold, your home, car, savings etc. being seized/confiscated when maybe a few other coins found don't have a full audit trail.

So the state is pretty much advocating that even best endevours to be above board can be a risky venture, where you could end up losing everything. And then wonders why so much capital/assets are flighting the UK. When pushed into such corners there's greater incentive to move to the dark side. And not only gold, but Pounds also. Which mid to longer term is likely to be good for the price of gold in Pounds as the currency sinks due to state over-micro-management.

Simply the tax rule book/laws are so extensive and vague that the state could likely have anyone they so decided to focus upon being proven as guilty. In reflection of that 'everyone is guilty' mindset they have facial/car number recognition, geolocation tracking, internet/call activities recording, are pushing for all transactions also being fed into their AI systems ... a Open Prison state. A very sad state of affairs. It should also be remembered that Labour in 1968 opted to set the top tax rate to 130%, yep, above a certain amount and for every £1 you earned you owed the taxman £1.30 in tax! And guess who'll likely be in government come the next General Election, with a large enough majority where it can implement even its most wildest of socialist dreams. The Tories as is aren't much different, we basically have a autocracy - just a colour vote of red or blue with much the same government rising to power either way.

[Gordy]

40 minutes ago, Bratnia said:

Any gold, held by anyone, even if bought via the internet, and without a audit trail is at risk of being confiscated, as the proceeds of illicit activities or smuggling.  If HMRC inspect a dealers records that will lead them onto individuals who if in turn they are investigated may very well lead to a prize of confiscation. HMRC manual even indicates that if you are the unwitting holder of smuggled gold ... its confiscated and as such each purchase you make should include questioning of how/where it was sourced/funded, name, address ...etc. Any claim of gold having been lost and if it is ever found again ... may very well not be the finders gold, instead being claimed by the Crown or others (museums).

As should anyone who makes large sales/purchases of over 10K Euros value (even in multiple smaller amounts and across multiple family members) consider whether they need to register as a high value trader (that costs around £300/year - that helps fund anti-money-laundering activities). Or again potentially fall foul of the law. Perhaps a claim that you didn't register and so were up to no good and your gold (and other wealth/assets) confiscated as the proceeds of illicit activities.

The UK seems to be transitioning ever closer to a assumption of guilty until you can prove otherwise state and where that state can financially benefit from pursuits/confiscations. Buy a single paper roll of 10 one ounce gold Britannia coins costing £17K of whatever from a dealership who is later inspected and their records having you also investigated and potentially having that gold, your home, car, savings etc. being seized/confiscated when maybe a few other coins found don't have a full audit trail.

So the state is pretty much advocating that even best endevours to be above board can be a risky venture, where you could end up losing everything. And then wonders why so much capital/assets are flighting the UK. When pushed into such corners there's greater incentive to move to the dark side. And not only gold, but Pounds also. Which mid to longer term is likely to be good for the price of gold in Pounds as the currency sinks due to state over-micro-management.

Simply the tax rule book/laws are so extensive and vague that the state could likely have anyone they so decided to focus upon being proven as guilty. In reflection of that 'everyone is guilty' mindset they have facial/car number recognition, geolocation tracking, internet/call activities recording, are pushing for all transactions also being fed into their AI systems ... a Open Prison state. A very sad state of affairs. It should also be remembered that Labour in 1968 opted to set the top tax rate to 130%, yep, above a certain amount and for every £1 you earned you owed the taxman £1.30 in tax! And guess who'll likely be in government come the next General Election, with a large enough majority where it can implement even its most wildest of socialist dreams. The Tories as is aren't much different, we basically have a autocracy - just a colour vote of red or blue with much the same government rising to power either way.

I'm doing a good deal on foil hats, CGT free too. No paper trail, I'll leave it under the bench in the usual place with a chalk cross to let you know I've delivered the swag

Edited April 25 by Gordy
Spelling

[JohnA1]

23 hours ago, Bratnia said:

Any gold, held by anyone, even if bought via the internet, and without a audit trail is at risk of being confiscated, as the proceeds of illicit activities or smuggling.  If HMRC inspect a dealers records that will lead them onto individuals who if in turn they are investigated may very well lead to a prize of confiscation. HMRC manual even indicates that if you are the unwitting holder of smuggled gold ... its confiscated and as such each purchase you make should include questioning of how/where it was sourced/funded, name, address ...etc. Any claim of gold having been lost and if it is ever found again ... may very well not be the finders gold, instead being claimed by the Crown or others (museums).

As should anyone who makes large sales/purchases of over 10K Euros value (even in multiple smaller amounts and across multiple family members) consider whether they need to register as a high value trader (that costs around £300/year - that helps fund anti-money-laundering activities). Or again potentially fall foul of the law. Perhaps a claim that you didn't register and so were up to no good and your gold (and other wealth/assets) confiscated as the proceeds of illicit activities.

The UK seems to be transitioning ever closer to a assumption of guilty until you can prove otherwise state and where that state can financially benefit from pursuits/confiscations. Buy a single paper roll of 10 one ounce gold Britannia coins costing £17K of whatever from a dealership who is later inspected and their records having you also investigated and potentially having that gold, your home, car, savings etc. being seized/confiscated when maybe a few other coins found don't have a full audit trail.

So the state is pretty much advocating that even best endevours to be above board can be a risky venture, where you could end up losing everything. And then wonders why so much capital/assets are flighting the UK. When pushed into such corners there's greater incentive to move to the dark side. And not only gold, but Pounds also. Which mid to longer term is likely to be good for the price of gold in Pounds as the currency sinks due to state over-micro-management.

Simply the tax rule book/laws are so extensive and vague that the state could likely have anyone they so decided to focus upon being proven as guilty. In reflection of that 'everyone is guilty' mindset they have facial/car number recognition, geolocation tracking, internet/call activities recording, are pushing for all transactions also being fed into their AI systems ... a Open Prison state. A very sad state of affairs. It should also be remembered that Labour in 1968 opted to set the top tax rate to 130%, yep, above a certain amount and for every £1 you earned you owed the taxman £1.30 in tax! And guess who'll likely be in government come the next General Election, with a large enough majority where it can implement even its most wildest of socialist dreams. The Tories as is aren't much different, we basically have a autocracy - just a colour vote of red or blue with much the same government rising to power either way.

This is a public forum so I cannot go into much more depth.

They can create whatever rules/regulations/mandates they choose - that would only apply to those who volunteer (or are tricked to volunteer) and act as if they are under their juristiction.

We are all innocent until proven guilty by a jury of our peers - this hasn't changed, despite the mafia tactics of liars and bullies hiding behind sham corporations.

Edited April 26 by JohnA1