2012 bullion quarter sovereign ownership

[Petra]

anyone got a cheap one for sale?😮🤔

[Wampum]

9 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

Nice certificate, thanks for posting.

Maximum coin mintage does not always equate to actual coin mintage though, it's just sets the upper limit.

The Maximum for the bullion Quarter and the Half for 2012 was 250,000 whilst the Sovereign was unlimited so the figures are basically the same for the bullion and the BU version.

So it looks like for this year the Mint pulled a fast one😄.

Still no closer to finding out what the 137 coins are, only other coins that are different are the carded ones, however on their packaging it states Bullion.   

[Wampum]

18 minutes ago, Petra said:

anyone got a cheap one for sale?😮🤔

I'm the same, great thread.

Since I started reading this, I have been trawling the web for Quarter Sovs.

 

    

[Petra]

Just now, Wampum said:

I'm the same, great thread.

Since I started reading this, I have been trawling the web for Quarter Sovs.

 

    

I do actually have a 2012 and one or two others, nice little coins. Just stick to Royal Mint ones! Although the current prices for bullion ones on the mint site are a bit steep😮🤔🤔

[Petra]

Ha! Ha! Another cheap one found today 🤔😮😮

[Wampum]

5 hours ago, Petra said:

Ha! Ha! Another cheap one found today 🤔😮😮

Congrats on the pick-up, really pleased for you.

Still really fed up that I missed all the carded ones from the Royal Mint earlier this year.  

[Petra]

2 minutes ago, Wampum said:

Congrats on the pick-up, really pleased for you.

Still really fed up that I missed all the carded ones from the Royal Mint earlier this year.  

👍cheers, sure you’ll strike lucky soon😮 the lady who served me told me what prices they are paying people for their coins so I had no qualms about paying what I did for these, especially the 2012🤔

[Esjayc]

I might be causing a thread resurrection! I picked one up today in 'best value' from HGM for £134 Should turn up early next week 🤞

[JamesH]

1 hour ago, Esjayc said:

I might be causing a thread resurrection! I picked one up today in 'best value' from HGM for £134 Should turn up early next week 🤞

Nice work. Decent best value to nab 👍🏼

[Petra]

2 hours ago, Esjayc said:

I might be causing a thread resurrection! I picked one up today in 'best value' from HGM for £134 Should turn up early next week 🤞

😮right now that’s a good price… well done🤔

[Esjayc]

For what it's worth, I've put in a Freedom of Information request to the Royal Mint, to establish whether the mintage figure of 137 bullion coins is correct (as per 2021 Marsh book). RM have got 20 working days to respond (and could extend by another 20 days if they're struggling to find the info). Day '1' will be Monday 22nd April.

Will update once I get a response.

[Olivard]

21 minutes ago, Esjayc said:

For what it's worth, I've put in a Freedom of Information request to the Royal Mint, to establish whether the mintage figure of 137 bullion coins is correct (as per 2021 Marsh book). RM have got 20 working days to respond (and could extend by another 20 days if they're struggling to find the info). Day '1' will be Monday 22nd April.

Will update once I get a response.

But are they subject to FOI requests?

Even if they are they could claim commercial exemption.

[jultorsk]

15 minutes ago, Esjayc said:

For what it's worth, I've put in a Freedom of Information request to the Royal Mint, to establish whether the mintage figure of 137 bullion coins is correct (as per 2021 Marsh book). RM have got 20 working days to respond (and could extend by another 20 days if they're struggling to find the info). Day '1' will be Monday 22nd April.

Will update once I get a response.

Good luck. They've been avoiding the requests since 2016 or so when the then CFO who was amiable to providing such info was no more. Up until 2015 the data was available.

"Although we hold information within the scope of your request we are withholding this information pursuant to section 43 of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

Section 43 FOIA – Commercial interests

It is our view that the release of information in respect of mintage figures for bullion coins would be likely to prejudice the commercial interests of the Royal Mint as well as the market and end customers for these coins generally.

Core bullion products (e.g. Queens Beast, Sovereign and Britannia) do not have mintages, certainly not in the sense that we do with commemorative coins. Instead the production figures are solely determined by market/customer demand. Declaring production figures on these coins has the potential to impact sales and falsely inflate the prices in the bullion market. For example, if the production figure is considered to be low then the product could be viewed as a rare/collectible item and in these cases many retailers increase their prices. This causes confusion as to the distinction between core bullion products and commemorative/collectible items. There is then the clear potential to negatively impact the end customer as they could end up paying more for a bullion product than its intrinsic value. It could also impact negatively on our numismatic business as these products are sold in that team too. We note that our stance in this regard is just the same as with many other Mints (e.g. the Royal Canadian Mint), neither of whom declare mintage figures for bullion coins, but do for commemorative coins in accordance with their publication schemes."

Makes no sense but that's what they're likely to reply. 

[Esjayc]

29 minutes ago, Olivard said:

But are they subject to FOI requests?

Even if they are they could claim commercial exemption.

In a nutshell, it is possible to submit an FOI to most commercial, regulatory, and government entities under FOI. Depending on the nature of the request, info can be withheld, partially given/partially withheld, the request deemed 'unreasonable', or various exemptions under the Act applied. 

RM has a page dedicated to FOI and even a dedicated email address: https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/freedom-of-information/

[Esjayc]

28 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Good luck. They've been avoiding the requests since 2016 or so when the then CFO who was amiable to providing such info was no more. Up until 2015 the data was available.

"Although we hold information within the scope of your request we are withholding this information pursuant to section 43 of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

Section 43 FOIA – Commercial interests

It is our view that the release of information in respect of mintage figures for bullion coins would be likely to prejudice the commercial interests of the Royal Mint as well as the market and end customers for these coins generally.

Core bullion products (e.g. Queens Beast, Sovereign and Britannia) do not have mintages, certainly not in the sense that we do with commemorative coins. Instead the production figures are solely determined by market/customer demand. Declaring production figures on these coins has the potential to impact sales and falsely inflate the prices in the bullion market. For example, if the production figure is considered to be low then the product could be viewed as a rare/collectible item and in these cases many retailers increase their prices. This causes confusion as to the distinction between core bullion products and commemorative/collectible items. There is then the clear potential to negatively impact the end customer as they could end up paying more for a bullion product than its intrinsic value. It could also impact negatively on our numismatic business as these products are sold in that team too. We note that our stance in this regard is just the same as with many other Mints (e.g. the Royal Canadian Mint), neither of whom declare mintage figures for bullion coins, but do for commemorative coins in accordance with their publication schemes."

Makes no sense but that's what they're likely to reply. 

Aha! 

I'd argue their response citing Section 43 (trade secret, business secret, technical secret, etc), doesn't quite fit their narrative, when actually reading the section https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/foi/freedom-of-information-and-environmental-information-regulations/section-43-commercial-interests/#:~:text=Section 43(1) provides an,or any other legal entity). 

But that's my personal opinion and interpretation of course.

You'd think that disclosing mintage figures for either bullion, or proof coins (often disclosed on proof certs or sealed bullion coin cards) from previous years, would not cause 'harm' (as per RM's response / Section 43) to the RM as a business, nor would it allow potential competition (indeed RM is effectively an HM Treasury/Government entity who is the sole maker of legal tender coinage, the particular coinage of which is in question). We could go on, and also challenge it... but likely more hassle than it's worth to challenge the RM, or go to the ombudsman (Information Commissioner). 

I've seen some of Backyard Bullion's recent Youtube vids on RM - their stances seem to be firm (and sometimes somewhat bizarre and arguably unethical).

If anything useful does come from my FOI, I'll post it 🙂. If not, I'll shrug my shoulders, chalk it up as being thwarted by the RM 🤣!

[Foster88]

One recently sold at auction.

https://www.tooveys.com/lots/567335/an-elizabeth-ii-royal-mint-brilliant-uncirculated-sovereign/

[Petra]

6 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

One recently sold at auction.

https://www.tooveys.com/lots/567335/an-elizabeth-ii-royal-mint-brilliant-uncirculated-sovereign/

🤔quite cheap….🤔😮

[Esjayc]

My 2012 quarter turned up today 🙂

[Petra]

5 hours ago, Esjayc said:

My 2012 quarter turned up today 🙂

Well done, looks great👍