are scrap silver coins best price to spot price

[goldrush]

Greeting all!

I am considering buying some scrap silver coins, as I want them as a way of barter or to trade small amounts with certain people

I looked at "gold back notes" but they had a big fee on top of the spot price when considering the work needed to make them was a lot! And I think as it stands the lowest value note will buy you $4-$5.

Since scrap silver coins have lost all there vale, are they worth scrap price silver and is this the spot price for silver or not?

Thanks

GR

[ChrisSilver]

11 minutes ago, goldrush said:

Since scrap silver coins have lost all there vale, are they worth scrap price silver and is this the spot price for silver or not?

Scrap silver / damaged silver coins, should be worth at least spot price IMO, as you should be able to easily sell for spot price on TSF. There has been silver sold at spot on TSF in the past, most silver will have some margin though. It may be better to purchase other items in good condition as depending on what you purchase most of the margin can be recouped if selling directly on the secondary market (i.e. selling directly to other collectors/investors on TSF) Selling to a dealer will get you a lower amount (likely less than spot price)

[goldrush]

3 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

Scrap silver / damaged silver coins, should be worth at least spot price IMO, as you should be able to easily sell for spot price on TSF. There has been silver sold at spot on TSF in the past, most silver will have some margin though. It may be better to purchase other items in good condition as depending on what you purchase most of the margin can be recouped if selling directly on the secondary market (i.e. selling directly to other collectors/investors on TSF) Selling to a dealer will get you a lower amount (likely less than spot price)

So you think its one of the best option for getting spot price on silver. Any other forms can you think of that will get you spot price on silver???

What is TSF? Do you mean this web site? If so is there a trading area of the forum for all this?

 

Thanks

[ChrisSilver]

3 minutes ago, goldrush said:

So you think its one of the best option for getting spot price on silver. Any other forms can you think of that will get you spot price on silver???

If you want exposure to the underlying spot price you could also consider services such as allocated silver like bullionvault.com but if you are purely looking for physical silver and take delivery as cheaply as possible then buying in the secondary (used) market will get you the lowest prices. 
 

3 minutes ago, goldrush said:

What is TSF? Do you mean this web site? If so is there a trading area of the forum for all this?

Yes, TSF = The Silver Forum 

We have one of the largest peer to peer marketplaces for precious metals. 

I think most silver at spot will likely be snapped up pretty quickly, as silver in the UK has VAT added as well as premiums. Feel free to start a wanted topic in the trade section though  
 

Please do make sure you have read the applicable QuickStart guide to trading as it contains useful and important information before trading on the forum. 

UK QuickStart Guide
EU QuickStart Guide
USA & Canada QuickStart Guide

I hope this is of some help   and I wish you luck in your stacking journey 

[goldrush]

11 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

If you want exposure to the underlying spot price you could also consider services such as allocated silver like bullionvault.com but if you are purely looking for physical silver and take delivery as cheaply as possible then buying in the secondary (used) market will get you the lowest prices. 

is that a bit like an ETF? I do currently hold share on the "London Stock Exchange" with "wisdomtree physical gold" through a share broker. the gold is sold in units of something I can not understand, but the gold bars are stored in a "HSBC bank" vault in "Hatton Gardens". I think im buying and selling the gold at spot price there. But there is still a very small fee to be paid to Wisdom tree then a brokers fee for trading. Unlike crypto currencies, not practical though if you want to use your share dealings to buy a cup of tea

[goldrush]

22 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

Yes, TSF = The Silver Forum 

We have one of the largest peer to peer marketplaces for precious metals. 

I think most silver at spot will likely be snapped up pretty quickly, as silver in the UK has VAT added as well as premiums. Feel free to start a wanted topic in the trade section though  

If you are a private seller or a business that trades under so much per year. Then you dont have to register and hence charge VAT

[ChrisSilver]

1 minute ago, goldrush said:

If you are a private seller or a business that trades under so much per year. Then you dont have to register and hence charge VAT

A business that operates under the VAT threshold can't claim the VAT input (VAT paid and claimed back) on silver purchased to resell, so there will still be that cost 'baked' into the product when it is sold, irrespective of not if it is resold with VAT the initial amount of VAT paid is still in the item price when resold, so there is still a cost over spot that is added.

A private seller would also not sell at spot price if they can easily get more money selling in the secondary market. It is about supply and demand. Usually prices in the secondary market are better for both sellers and buyers as they reduce the spread when buying from dealers, as it is a peer to peer market. 

Have a check around the forum trade section, to see what is available and the prices. There is currently a trial offer on for just £1 trial membership for a month, and having Premium Membership gives you access to the trade section 3 days before standard members.  
 

 

[goldrush]

16 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

A business that operates under the VAT threshold can't claim the VAT input (VAT paid and claimed back) on silver purchased to resell, so there will still be that cost 'baked' into the product when it is sold, irrespective of not if it is resold with VAT the initial amount of VAT paid is still in the item price when resold, so there is still a cost over spot that is added.

I understand the principle of that once VAT is applied that the cost needs to be passed on transaction to transaction to end user. But if we dont ever get a VAT transaction. So lets say a private seller sells scrap silver to a non VAT trader then onto a private consumer at the end of the transaction, there is no VAT present

[goldrush]

21 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

A business that operates under the VAT threshold can't claim the VAT input (VAT paid and claimed back) on silver purchased to resell, so there will still be that cost 'baked' into the product when it is sold, irrespective of not if it is resold with VAT the initial amount of VAT paid is still in the item price when resold, so there is still a cost over spot that is added.

A private seller would also not sell at spot price if they can easily get more money selling in the secondary market. It is about supply and demand. Usually prices in the secondary market are better for both sellers and buyers as they reduce the spread when buying from dealers, as it is a peer to peer market. 

I also understand that on top of a spot price we will incur costs such as broker fee (like buying and selling on this site) and delivery fees. 

So another example would be you buy something on feebay worth £1000, plus delivery costs. But when you want to sell at equal value of £1000 you will have to pay feebay 10% of that sale price for there broker fees. plus you dont get your delivery cost back what you paid to have it delivered to you in the first place

[goldrush]

27 minutes ago, ChrisSilver said:

Have a check around the forum trade section, to see what is available and the prices. There is currently a trial offer on for just £1 trial membership for a month, and having Premium Membership gives you access to the trade section 3 days before standard members.  
 

 

is this the forum you where refering to?

https://www.thesilverforum.com/forum/13-united-kingdom-ungraded/

[Agaupl]

Spot price is the price of raw metal basically refined out the door of the mine. Or paper traded metals. 
As retail buyers and sellers spot doesn’t generally exist as we all have costs of buying and selling, VAT included. Not that it’s make believe but it’s thr industrial price.   Dealers are another matter and have higher costs of doing business but also offer instant sales, but even there offers below spot still irk me. 

if you manage to buy at spot that’s a great deal but as a retail buyer you’d still expect some premium over spot even from ‘scrap silver’ as it’s still a finished product, refined and stamped. Plus in peer to peer transactions benefit has to be on both sides to make it attractive. 

[sixgun]

You start by saying you want low priced silver to use to barter / trade for small amounts.

As we aren't in a Mad Max society quite yet why not use cash?

Gold back notes are collector / novelty items - they have high premiums. Some people collect them on the forum. i have never been interested b/c they seem like a faddish frippery to me. Certainly not something you might use in a cost effective way to barter. 

You mention topics like ETF's, the LSE, registering for VAT - i thought you wanted a few bits of low priced silver to use to barter in small amounts.

How do you know the other party wants silver and what sort of price they are willing to take it from you?

Coins are a good way to hold silver - there is a known amount of silver with a presentation you might recognise and check. 
Even milk spotted scrappy coins now go for a few pounds over spot on TSF. The nearest you are going to get to spot is old Sterling silver items which come up from time-to-time. Members do sell this for spot and unless you can get a better price for the actual silver item, a dealer will give you less than spot - the silver would need to be refined which all comes at a cost.

Personally i am not very convinced with the idea of bartering - i question whether it will happen at all or more than the odd time. Ideas like bartering silver for eggs, milk and a sheep with a local farmer are in Bunker Bill's dreamland and not the real world, even Mad Max World. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by sixgun

[ady]

13 hours ago, goldrush said:

Greeting all!

I am considering buying some scrap silver coins, as I want them as a way of barter or to trade small amounts with certain people

I looked at "gold back notes" but they had a big fee on top of the spot price when considering the work needed to make them was a lot! And I think as it stands the lowest value note will buy you $4-$5.

Since scrap silver coins have lost all there vale, are they worth scrap price silver and is this the spot price for silver or not?

Thanks

GR

I'd say go for it, especially the pre 1920's. It is a good way to learn about silver and how I started in PM. The chances of acquiring fake metal are reduced and give you a feel for the metal should you wish to progress to other forms, they are beautiful ( in my opinion ), will only get rarer. I have done trade with them, though admittedly this I guess is limited to who you know. Unless you are VAT registered just understand this is all in the premium others have explained or transacting so much you get hit with Capital Gains. I am more of the camp that this will grow in trade as people give up on cash and are duped into the all seeing CBDC. In the mean time just have fun with it, and good luck!

 

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, ady said:

Unless you are VAT registered just understand this is all in the premium others have explained or transacting so much you get hit with Capital Gains. 

 

As was covered by @Seasider in the post below - non-legal tender UK coins are Chattels and so as long as they are not 'sold' in lots of more than £6000 or in linked transactions to the same person of more than £6k or sold to linked people, then they are not declared for tax purposes.
i brought up the topic of chattels and that a lot of the coins and bars members sell fall outside of CGT and can be ignored - seasider refined and corrected my interpretation on what i had found. This is a subject all UK tax residents on the forum should take note of and study. With planning in purchases and disposals there really should be relatively few occassions CGT need to incurred.

Coins (including pre- 1837 sovereigns) which are not legal tender are not currency. They are chattels and qualify for the chattels exemption in TCGA92/S262. A gain on such a coin is therefore exempt if the disposal consideration does not exceed the limit in CG76573. You should bear in mind the possibility that the disposal of more than one coin may constitute the disposal of a `set’, see CG76631+.

The chattels exemption does not apply to coins which are non-sterling currency, TCGA92/S262 (6)(b)."

[Thelonerangershorse]

18 hours ago, goldrush said:

So lets say a private seller sells scrap silver to a non VAT trader then onto a private consumer at the end of the transaction, there is no VAT present

Except the private seller paid VAT when he bought the silver in the first place and so unless he's willing to sell to you at a 20% loss he's going to pass this cost on.

[goldrush]

18 hours ago, Agaupl said:

Spot price is the price of raw metal basically refined out the door of the mine. Or paper traded metals. 
As retail buyers and sellers spot doesn’t generally exist as we all have costs of buying and selling, VAT included. Not that it’s make believe but it’s thr industrial price.   Dealers are another matter and have higher costs of doing business but also offer instant sales, but even there offers below spot still irk me. 

if you manage to buy at spot that’s a great deal but as a retail buyer you’d still expect some premium over spot even from ‘scrap silver’ as it’s still a finished product, refined and stamped. Plus in peer to peer transactions benefit has to be on both sides to make it attractive. 

So how much do you think I should be paying for these scrap coins then?

[goldrush]

12 hours ago, sixgun said:

You start by saying you want low priced silver to use to barter / trade for small amounts.

As we aren't in a Mad Max society quite yet why not use cash?

Gold back notes are collector / novelty items - they have high premiums. Some people collect them on the forum. i have never been interested b/c they seem like a faddish frippery to me. Certainly not something you might use in a cost effective way to barter. 

You mention topics like ETF's, the LSE, registering for VAT - i thought you wanted a few bits of low priced silver to use to barter in small amounts.

How do you know the other party wants silver and what sort of price they are willing to take it from you?

Coins are a good way to hold silver - there is a known amount of silver with a presentation you might recognise and check. 
Even milk spotted scrappy coins now go for a few pounds over spot on TSF. The nearest you are going to get to spot is old Sterling silver items which come up from time-to-time. Members do sell this for spot and unless you can get a better price for the actual silver item, a dealer will give you less than spot - the silver would need to be refined which all comes at a cost.

Personally i am not very convinced with the idea of bartering - i question whether it will happen at all or more than the odd time. Ideas like bartering silver for eggs, milk and a sheep with a local farmer are in Bunker Bill's dreamland and not the real world, even Mad Max World. 

So you think stick to cash given the amount of bank printing notes that has gone on since 2020?

 

Well I was under the impresion that gold back was being traded in shops in the southern states of America

 

Do you watch real alternative media? where you are told to invest in gold and silver all the time?

[goldrush]

11 hours ago, ady said:

I'd say go for it, especially the pre 1920's. It is a good way to learn about silver and how I started in PM. The chances of acquiring fake metal are reduced and give you a feel for the metal should you wish to progress to other forms, they are beautiful ( in my opinion ), will only get rarer. I have done trade with them, though admittedly this I guess is limited to who you know. Unless you are VAT registered just understand this is all in the premium others have explained or transacting so much you get hit with Capital Gains. I am more of the camp that this will grow in trade as people give up on cash and are duped into the all seeing CBDC. In the mean time just have fun with it, and good luck!

 

Thanks!

Did you hear about that Brexit man Nigal Ferage who had all of his bank accounts closed down because he was condeming CBDC

 

What will him and the likes of his fans do in a post CBDC world I ask? Crypto is not up to the job IMHO

[Agaupl]

Don’t be too taken in by the end is nigh brigade. Just because some guy in the internet is telling you to do something doesn’t make it real. Me included. I don’t know the outlet but check if they sell anything or have affiliates. If we get to into a bartering situation there’s going to be a lot more to worry about than if you have any silver imho. but that’s just my opinion. 

No one on TSF is going to tell you not to invest in precious metals, that’s why we are here, and everyone has their own niche and interest in this area. Stacking silver just for weight is a valid option if that’s what you want to do. You should try to buy silver, any silver (rounds, bars, coins, damaged, scrap, bad proofs anything) for as low a price you can get your hands on. There’s no rush, just get acquainted with prices and buy bit by bit. And don’t go getting attached to collectables if this is your goal!

I have a few goldback. I like the design and as a proof of concept. No one in their right mind will be using them regularly for purchases except the people trying to sell them. The premiums are just sky high. Yes some people in the US use them.. but again it’s just a novelty. 
 

Don’t get confused by a store of value and a means of exchange. As has been said above the best means of exchange is cash. But it’s a terrible store of value. IMO bullion gold is an excellent store of value but not a great means of exchange 99% of the time. And neither of these are a great investment (except in certain circumstances).  You seem to want silver as a means of exchange for a post crash world. It’s a bit of a long shot imo, but each to their own. Get acquainted with the prices and buy as close to spot as you can. There’s some good deals atm.

yes everyone hears about nige, all the time, what is going on with his bank account is not good. But I’d say just look at how a CBDC would affect you personally and work to that, not what the talking heads say. Which country are you In? Your choices will be very different based on where you are. 
 

 

[sixgun]

@goldrush
Well it wasn't clear to me what your full intentions were from the opening post. You are thinking about some point where there is hyperinflation.

If you want to get some barter silver for that then small silver is key - an ounce might buy you a week's shopping so better have smaller units.
If needs to be recognisable. 99% of cat owners don't have a clue at the moment - they would not be able to recognise silver so it is doubtful you would be bartering with the NPC zombies. i expect you would trade your silver for hyperinflated cash and then spend that (quickly). So as stated cash is the easiest way to buy and sell, even if it is inflating away.

As a slight aside, the odd chopped up bits of silver which some might sell as barter silver are of doubtful use - people will want to see a proper coin - with proper marks they can check and identify, not an odd shaped blob. 

Yes get out of large amounts of cash and into assets that hold value in Mad Max times - foods that last a long time - things people need or think they need which are portible and smaller sized. They might be more useful that silver coins the majority don't recognise and potentially won't value - remember, silver will only be worth as much as the guy you are selling to thinks it is. Brokers, the LSE etc etc are smoke by that time. 

i am not sure Farage lost his bank b/c of CBDC's. There is too much BS in the media - it is the controlled media which always lies.

Edited July 18, 2023 by sixgun

[Agaupl]

Yeah agree with all of the above. If you want to be shtf proof get a food garden before silver. But if you want silver get it recognised and small (Ie more expensive). I don’t buy silver less than 1oz and preferably not less than 1kg as it’s just so expensive. Not going to do any good for a post apocalyptic kebab…
and have you seen the price of lentils recently?.. and I hate lentils… but I’ve got 5kg tins. If you are outside the uk there’s another useful heavy metal to stack btw. 

[sixgun]

47 minutes ago, Agaupl said:

Yeah agree with all of the above. If you want to be shtf proof get a food garden before silver. But if you want silver get it recognised and small (Ie more expensive). I don’t buy silver less than 1oz and preferably not less than 1kg as it’s just so expensive. Not going to do any good for a post apocalyptic kebab…
and have you seen the price of lentils recently?.. and I hate lentils… but I’ve got 5kg tins. If you are outside the uk there’s another useful heavy metal to stack btw. 

Well he could buy old UK coinage for barter purposes. It comes up now and again on the forum. You have small bite sized pieces. 
i am a fan of the 1 kilo - i do wonder if silver shoots up whether 1 kilo chunks become too pricey.

[Agaupl]

Oh he’s uk based.. I thought US for some reason..in that case your silver buying will be very different to the US based heads. Yeah 1kg could be too big. But for barter it’s 1/4s or 1/10s  that’s bloody expensive. I’d buy discount beans tbh  🤣

 

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, Agaupl said:

 I’d buy discount beans tbh  🤣

No joke though - you are right, stash what people want and need, portable items which don't go off, tins of beans and corned beef, jars of coffee, stuff like that if you are really talking about barter - if talking about guarding against inflation then that is a different story.

[Bigmarc]

Why do us Britt's have an unhealthy fascination with baked beans? Apparently we eat more than the rest of the world combined (probably b/s). 

 

@goldrush pre 1947 coins with enough effort go for spot on eBay quiet regularly. Pre 1920s may have a bit of a premium but still relatively cheap compared to everything else on the market. These are ideal if all you are looking for is a small exposure to the physical silver market and the use to be money so easily recognised. 

Please don't bellyflop in because of a handful of vids tell you to, just start buying a few bits up slowly just to see if it's your thing or not.