Opinions on the grade of this 1916 half crown please

[artalien]

Lovely to have if it was at the right price, a real curiosity. Assume it's actual .925. What's it worth in that grade, I can't access my copy of the book mentioned earlier. Why bother to fake it?

It's the hair but ..... dunno. Looks too good to be true.

Edited November 6, 2023 by artalien

[Petra]

11 minutes ago, artalien said:

Lovely to have if it was at the right price, a real curiosity. Assume it's actual .925. What's it worth in that grade, I can't access my copy of the book mentioned earlier. Why bother to fake it?

It's the hair but ..... dunno. Looks too good to be true.

£300-£400.. plus in top condition 🤔🫢

[Groundup]

50p car boot find. Took a chance, just for the silver content...

 

 

[artalien]

Be great if those who can would share more information about how it can be identified as a fake, and maybe how such a feat is achieved (the faking) Some heavy heads around 😀

Edited November 6, 2023 by artalien

[artalien]

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces4716.html

Just in case someone wants the stats on such Florins

[Bruce06]

5 hours ago, Groundup said:

My thoughts are this isn't genuine.

But I know absolutely zero, any input would be appreciated...

This one must be counterfeit, most obviously the hair of Edward and britannia.

[artalien]

What grade is the fake would you say?

[Bruce06]

55 minutes ago, artalien said:

What grade is the fake would you say?

Some fake pieces are so hard to identify, but this one is spotted if it's compared side by side with the real one.

[SidS]

7 hours ago, Bruce06 said:

This one must be counterfeit, most obviously the hair of Edward and britannia.

1905 would be the reason.

[artalien]

When I first looked at this coin the hair looked way off, the eyes and breasts of Britannia also. The more I looked though the more unsure I became. Just as well I am not buying numismatics. Glad that TSF has by a big majority called it out.

All that work to fake it for not a great deal of money. I wonder how it would do in an auction on here given it is a fake. I would also like to have a greater understanding of the creation process and the date of creation.

Edited November 7, 2023 by artalien

[SidS]

2 hours ago, artalien said:

When I first looked at this coin the hair looked way off, the eyes and breasts of Britannia also. The more I looked though the more unsure I became. Just as well I am not buying numismatics. Glad that TSF has by a big majority called it out.

All that work to fake it for not a great deal of money. I wonder how it would do in an auction on here given it is a fake. I would also like to have a greater understanding of the creation process and the date of creation.

1905s are rare.

[Stuntman]

I think that these 'fakes' are often not actually intended to deceive, because they differ fairly obviously from the genuine item when the two (or pictures of the two) are compared side by side.  Some people want them as a gap filler if they are collecting a date run and cannot justify the cost of the genuine item.

See also 1828 half crowns, 1903 and 1905 half crowns - etc.

This particular 1905 Florin appears to have a little crown mark just to the right of the 1905 date on the reverse.  That's definitely not there on the genuine coin.  And the portrait of Edward VII differs in many ways from the genuine coin, most noticeably just the shape of his head (edit: look at his ear as well, completely different).  The more you look, the more differences you'll see on both sides of the 'fake' coin.

If it's sterling silver it will be worth a little more as scrap than the price paid at the car boot sale.  But I have no idea about the metal content.

 

In contrast to this sort of 'fake', there are other fake coins out there which do intend to deceive people into thinking they are the genuine items.  These are often made by obtaining a genuine coin, taking impressions of it and then casting the fakes from these impressions.  So all the fakes look the same as each other, but will closely resemble the genuine coin.  1934 Wreath Crowns are often faked in this way but other coins such as 1905 shillings and half crowns are also faked like this, and for some reason the 1818 half crown is faked too.  I have one of these faked 1818 half crowns, which I keep as a curiosity and a warning.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Stuntman

[artalien]

2 hours ago, Stuntman said:

, most noticeably just the shape of his hea

Yes I thought that was off as well.

 

2 hours ago, Stuntman said:

These are often made by obtaining a genuine coin, taking impressions of it and then casting the fakes from these impressions.

Interesting.

[Bruce06]

3 hours ago, Stuntman said:

In contrast to this sort of 'fake', there are other fake coins out there which do intend to deceive people into thinking they are the genuine items.  These are often made by obtaining a genuine coin, taking impressions of it and then casting the fakes from these impressions.  So all the fakes look the same as each other, but will closely resemble the genuine coin.  1934 Wreath Crowns are often faked in this way but other coins such as 1905 shillings and half crowns are also faked like this, and for some reason the 1818 half crown is faked too.  I have one of these faked 1818 half crowns, which I keep as a curiosity and a warning.

This kind of fake is one of the most trouble issues in collecting coins, as some can be very very like to the real ones, at least to my amateur eyes.  

[Stuntman]

^^^ Same to my eyes.  I absolutely couldn't distinguish my fake 1818 half crown from a real one based on the pictures of the coin before I bought it. After receiving the coin I suspected it was a fake and then researched it further.  I found various information on the internet about these fake coins, and my coin had the same marks on it as the fake coin.

The fake 1818 half crown also has the incorrect die axis (the genuine coin is medal alignment, the fake is coin alignment) but you cannot tell that from individual pictures of each side!

Anyway, I still have it and certainly wouldn't ever try to pass it off as genuine.  I've removed it from the pool of available fakes, and subsequently purchased a genuine 1818 halfcrown from a reputable coin dealer.

[artalien]

Got me wondering why 1905 is a key date, must be because they didn't need shillings or such I suppose

[Stuntman]

There are occasional key dates across multiple denominations for silver coins. 

1905 is certainly the key date for Edward VII silver shillings, florins and halfcrowns.  1903 and 1904 halfcrowns are hard to find as well.

For George V, 1925 florins and halfcrowns are also hard to find, as are 1930 halfcrowns and 1932 florins. 

Going back to George IV, 1829 shillings and halfcrowns are scarce, but 1827 is scarcer for shillings and 1828 is scarcer for halfcrowns.

For William IV, 1837 is generally scarcer for shillings and particularly halfcrowns.  1835 halfcrowns are hard to find too.

For Victoria, 1854 is a key date for both shillings and florins, but 1850 shillings are rare, and the 1863 florins are very rare.  Also 1891/92 for the Jubilee Head florins.

Maybe it was related to demand but perhaps it was to do with supply of silver for minting the coins.  I don't know!

[Petra]

A 1905 one has a smaller mintage than most, however, still a mintage of over 1,000,000. The real key date surely is 1902 at 15,000? Like other coins it all depends on condition.

[Stuntman]

1902 currency florins are pretty common, and many of them were saved because they were the first year of the new monarch.  So plenty of good examples survived and it's the cheapest year to buy.

[Petra]

So there you go!  mintage numbers don’t always mean much, at the end of the day what is someone willing to pay for a coin. It appears that if someone wants to fake a coin, then it must be worth while, however, a lot of various types seem to make appearances at car boots!

[Stuntman]

Regarding the 1902 florin - according to my copy of Collector's Coins 2020, the mintage of the currency coin was 2,489,575 and there were 15,123 matt proof coins minted as well.  The 1905 florin had a mintage of 1,187,596.

Generally speaking, the first year's coins for a new monarch/new design are the cheapest to buy subsequently, as more of them will have been removed from circulation and put aside.  See 1887, 1902 and 1937 in particular.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Stuntman
clarity

[Bruce06]

Agree with Stuntman view, 1902 is not a tough year for collection.  Proof sets were issued in that year, so that many good examples are being kept after decades, therefore it's less difficult to find a decent 1902 coins comparing with other Edward's years.  Similar case is also applied for 1887, 1893, 1911, 1927, 1937 etc.

[SidS]

1905 was mid reign.

Firsts (1902) and lasts (1910) survive in a range of conditions, many in top grades.

1905 happened to coincide with lower mintage numbers and being several years into the reign.

The mintage numbers were probably not known immediately to collectors of the day, people who weren't avid collectors would be much less likely to put 1905s aside. A half crown was a lot of money back in 1905.

Also unlike modern coinage where BU and proof sets are available every year, they were only issued in 1902. Which makes older coinage so much more interesting than modern coinages. Any coins that do survive in top grade are the fortunate few.

[paul63]

On 01/03/2023 at 14:50, SidS said:

The problem with gothics is that they don't look so good in fine condition. They really have to be VF to really appreciate them.

Although with the rarest ones I guess I'll have to go with the old Vicky silouhette on a poor+ example.

Hi there what about these, two of my best coins.

Edited November 11, 2023 by paul63
Added photo

[Petra]

9 hours ago, paul63 said:

Hi there what about these, two of my best coins.

Great looking coins! Looks like some nice toning starting🤔