Thoughts on copper bullion as an investment?

[ArgentSmith]

[365DaysofSilver]

17 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

Very clever 

[ShineyMagpie]

I was thinking old 1 penny coin. Bronze composition of which is 97% copper, between 1971 and September 1992.

yes premium on silver, but no where near compatible to that on copper. And "emergency" get out, bill to pay and don't have cash (not that I recommend anyone should do this an plan accordingly), I could go to bullion dealer and sell. With copper I could go to a scrap yard and do the same but at a massive loss!

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, Mothballjim said:

The premium is very very high compared to the ‘spot price’ of copper but in terms of resale copper bullion products hold their crazy high premiums. Just not sure if this will always be the case!

Are you a politician?

I notice you avoided answering the question.

Always the case: probably not!

😎

[flyingveepixie]

Waste of time and money. I occasionally get to pick up little bits of copper from some of the jobs I do where there is occasionally some scrap lying around. I chuck it all in a big box and when I have enough I take it to the scrap merchant and exchange it for fiat.  I'd never dream of collecting copper bullion on the basis of actually buying it.

Edited January 9, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[Scuzzle]

14 hours ago, Anteater said:

It generally isn't, though. Even if we assume you're buying new at £32/ozt that's 62% premium, which is a lot but well under 100%. Copper at £150/5kg is a 333% premium (using @ShineyMagpie's copper spot value above), a factor of ~5.4x compared to the premium on silver. So while silver premium is high it's not even close to that premium on copper (and that with a higher min spend as presumably premium on small copper rounds/bars would be higher).

If we build 20% VAT on spot value into the comparison (which you might want to do if you're assuming that any sale of PMs would be to people who want bullion and would have to pay VAT on new bullion) then it's 34% on silver vs 261% on copper, a factor of ~7.7x.

(Now I'll wait for someone to point out all the silly errors in my numbers given how late in the evening it is...)

My point was there is a hefty chunk of premium attached to silver, one that's got significantly larger over the last year or two and if you were a silver stacker you would ideally want it back.  The copper even with it's heftier premium is no different when it comes to offloading it, you pay extra for it to be pressed into a nice round coin shape or a bar shape with a verified weight and to have some animal or whatever pressed onto it and there is no reason why you can't get that extra back if you sell it at the right places.  I bought hundreds of those Lakota copper rounds for £1 each, can't remember the name of the place selling them but they went under during the scamdemic and I see these on Ebay for anything between £3 and £7 and I also see that sellers are managing to move them at these prices.

[Spyder]

5 minutes ago, Scuzzle said:

My point was there is a hefty chunk of premium attached to silver, one that's got significantly larger over the last year or two and if you were a silver stacker you would ideally want it back.  The copper even with it's heftier premium is no different when it comes to offloading it, you pay extra for it to be pressed into a nice round coin shape or a bar shape with a verified weight and to have some animal or whatever pressed onto it and there is no reason why you can't get that extra back if you sell it at the right places.  I bought hundreds of those Lakota copper rounds for £1 each, can't remember the name of the place selling them but they went under during the scamdemic and I see these on Ebay for anything between £3 and £7 and I also see that sellers are managing to move them at these prices.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you could pick up free silver on the streets, would you go out and a pay for it?

Now substitute silver with copper and you should have your answer. Copper is not an investment unless it free. 

Of cause you could buy bundles of copper pipes, wait for the price to increase and offload them to plumbers for a profit, Problem is copper tarnishes and no plumber will want to use old looking pipes on a job

[WizardOfSov]

1 hour ago, Scuzzle said:

My point was there is a hefty chunk of premium attached to silver, one that's got significantly larger over the last year or two and if you were a silver stacker you would ideally want it back.  The copper even with it's heftier premium is no different when it comes to offloading it, you pay extra for it to be pressed into a nice round coin shape or a bar shape with a verified weight and to have some animal or whatever pressed onto it and there is no reason why you can't get that extra back if you sell it at the right places.  I bought hundreds of those Lakota copper rounds for £1 each, can't remember the name of the place selling them but they went under during the scamdemic and I see these on Ebay for anything between £3 and £7 and I also see that sellers are managing to move them at these prices.

Saying there is no difference between silver and copper because both have premiums is like saying there is no difference between losing a toenail and losing a leg.

Edited January 9, 2023 by WizardOfSov
typo

[Gordy]

47 minutes ago, Scuzzle said:

My point was there is a hefty chunk of premium attached to silver, one that's got significantly larger over the last year or two and if you were a silver stacker you would ideally want it back.  The copper even with it's heftier premium is no different when it comes to offloading it, you pay extra for it to be pressed into a nice round coin shape or a bar shape with a verified weight and to have some animal or whatever pressed onto it and there is no reason why you can't get that extra back if you sell it at the right places.  I bought hundreds of those Lakota copper rounds for £1 each, can't remember the name of the place selling them but they went under during the scamdemic and I see these on Ebay for anything between £3 and £7 and I also see that sellers are managing to move them at these prices.

whats a scamdemic?

[365DaysofSilver]

1 hour ago, Spyder said:

Let me ask you a simple question. If you could pick up free silver on the streets, would you go out and a pay for it?

Now substitute silver with copper and you should have your answer. Copper is not an investment unless it free. 

Of cause you could buy bundles of copper pipes, wait for the price to increase and offload them to plumbers for a profit, Problem is copper tarnishes and no plumber will want to use old looking pipes on a job

I’m sorry but this argument makes no sense. You can get free silver ‘on the streets’ if you really wanted to. It’s used in many electronic devices that are thrown out daily. 

[Scuzzle]

1 hour ago, Gordy said:

whats a scamdemic?

You know the medical emergency where the death tolls were no worse than a bad flu, where they changed the definition of just about everything to give the narrative legs and everyone was coherced into taking an experimental medical procedure the effects of which are still unfolding.

[Gordy]

5 minutes ago, Scuzzle said:

medical procedure

you mean an injection? 

[Scuzzle]

13 minutes ago, Gordy said:

you mean an injection? 

Yes, I'm that used to having to watch for censorship and algos that block discussion I've stopped saying injection.

[Spyder]

1 hour ago, Mothballjim said:

I’m sorry but this argument makes no sense. You can get free silver ‘on the streets’ if you really wanted to. It’s used in many electronic devices that are thrown out daily. 

Those micro dot of silver on switches would take forever to make it worth while, unless someone was giving you free old electronic. Even eWaste Ben on YouTube throws then in jar, waiting for when it becomes economical to try refine the silver. Street copper, nothing to refine. 

[Silverlocks]

Last time I looked, spot for copper was about $8 USD per kilo.  Most copper bar stock sits between around £20-30/kg, so you're paying a hefty premium over spot for it.  If you're able to scavenge scrap copper and melt it you might be able to stack it cost-effectively, but you're likely to take a bath if you buy it as ingots and then have to go and liquidate it.

[Bigmarc]

On 09/01/2023 at 00:05, Mothballjim said:

My exit plan would be eBay but to be honest it’s more of an experiment and I don’t plan to sell for minimum 5 years if at all

Why 5 years? I've noticed this a lot on the forum lately where members have put a time limit on investments. What I would do is wait for the price to move enough to cover eBay fees, sell some, then you will have your answer. Personally I quite like it but wouldn't buy it. Maybe because I can also get it for free (acts as a gateway to gold and silver). 

If so many people can get it for free then I can't see it shooting to the moon but just enough for people to go out looking for it. 

[flyingveepixie]

I did hear a rumour a while ago that the reason for copper tubing and electrical cable increasing in price so much was because the chinese were hoarding it much in the same way as they are hoarding other pms, but that was some years ago and it was just the guy behind the counter in Plumbcentre who told me so I don't know if it's even true or not and I can't go back there and ask him where he got his information from because the shop no longer exists...🤔

Edited January 11, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[Spyder]

15 minutes ago, flyingveepixie said:

I did hear a rumour a while ago that the reason for copper tubing and electrical cable increasing in price so much was because the chinese were hoarding it much in the same way as they are hoarding other pms, but that was some years ago and it was just the guy behind the counter in Plumbcentre who told me so I don't know if it's even true or not and I can't go back there and ask him where he got his information from because the shop no longer exists...🤔

The reason for copper going up in price is simple, the electric car. There is so much copper required.

[flyingveepixie]

23 minutes ago, Spyder said:

The reason for copper going up in price is simple, the electric car. There is so much copper required.

Possibly, but the price of cable has been increasing quite dramatically for at least 15 years so there must be other factors involved.

[Petra]

58 minutes ago, flyingveepixie said:

Possibly, but the price of cable has been increasing quite dramatically for at least 15 years so there must be other factors involved.

People having to prove where it’s from and they haven’t just ripped up half a mile of cable from the side of a retail way track!🤔😮

[flyingveepixie]

24 minutes ago, Petra said:

People having to prove where it’s from and they haven’t just ripped up half a mile of cable from the side of a retail way track!🤔😮

I assume you mean a railway track rather than a retail way track..😅  I've heard of that happening but can't imagine how they might do it without going up in a blue flash and a very loud bang so maybe it's not even a real thing....  🤔  Stripping lead from a roof on the other hand or nicking pipework and cabling from empty buildings is another thing entirely.

What I meant was the price of cable from actual retailers like City Electrical Factors, Wickes, Screwfix etc.  The price has been going up and up and up for years now. When I first started out on my own back in 2003 the price of a drum of 6mm twin and earth was around £100 inc VAT if memory serves, but now it's £221.70 - see link below.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/2326338-h6242y-6mm-pvc-twin-and-earth-cable-grey-100m-drum

Edited January 11, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[Petra]

38 minutes ago, flyingveepixie said:

I assume you mean a railway track rather than a retail way track..😅  I've heard of that happening but can't imagine how they might do it without going up in a blue flash and a very loud bang so maybe it's not even a real thing....  🤔  Stripping lead from a roof on the other hand or nicking pipework and cabling from empty buildings is another thing entirely.

What I meant was the price of cable from actual retailers like City Electrical Factors, Wickes, Screwfix etc.  The price has been going up and up and up for years now. When I first started out on my own back in 2003 the price of a drum of 6mm twin and earth was around £100 inc VAT if memory serves, but now it's £221.70 - see link below.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/2326338-h6242y-6mm-pvc-twin-and-earth-cable-grey-100m-drum

Oh, but they do! Done round here. Also, cut off phone/internet at a local prison… out in the country, found the buried cables and ripped up in the middle of the night🤔 

[Spyder]

40 minutes ago, flyingveepixie said:

I assume you mean a railway track rather than a retail way track..😅  I've heard of that happening but can't imagine how they might do it without going up in a blue flash and a very loud bang so maybe it's not even a real thing....  🤔  Stripping lead from a roof on the other hand or nicking pipework and cabling from empty buildings is another thing entirely.

What I meant was the price of cable from actual retailers like City Electrical Factors, Wickes, Screwfix etc.  The price has been going up and up and up for years now. When I first started out on my own back in 2003 the price of a drum of 6mm twin and earth was around £100 inc VAT if memory serves, but now it's £221.70 - see link below.

https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/2326338-h6242y-6mm-pvc-twin-and-earth-cable-grey-100m-drum

That is also due to inflation and that is why gold is a form protecting you capital.

In the 1970 it would take about 100oz of gold to but a modest property and today it is the same

[flyingveepixie]

1 hour ago, Petra said:

Oh, but they do! Done round here. Also, cut off phone/internet at a local prison… out in the country, found the buried cables and ripped up in the middle of the night🤔 

Phone and internet cables operating at 48V I can understand - no risk there if you cut into them with your snips, although it would seem to be hardly worth the bother as the copper return would be so minimal. But cables for running trains and other systems like signalling and lighting I can't get my head around as they would be extremely risky to tamper with - there are some pretty hefty cables in those systems operating at voltages above 230.  How do they do it?   Unless it's so organised that they have a man at source to isolate the power supply, which I doubt...🤔

Edited January 11, 2023 by flyingveepixie

[flyingveepixie]

1 hour ago, Spyder said:

That is also due to inflation

Agreed - to a point.   But we haven't had 120%+ worth of what we might call "normal" or even "expected" inflation caused by the usual suspects in those types of commodities in a mere 20 years, so there must be some other factor(s) in it, and the chinese are always a likely explanation IMO.

Edited January 11, 2023 by flyingveepixie