1839-1841-1874 London Shield Sovs

[refero]

good morning everyone, 

talking about London super rare shield sovereigns, i was trying to figure how often they do pop in market/auctions and if and how the rarity goes along with a decent grading.

-1841 is undoubtedly the rarest; i havent seen an at "at least" EF one for ages and i dont even want to know how much would a AU58/MS61 go for in an auction today

- 1839 is a pretty huge mistery to me; proof ones are way "more common" (not cheap tho!) than the "regular" bullion one (i guess at that time people saved the 1838 as the first Victorian gold coin). Proofs are actually sold on important auctions on regular basis while the bullion is much more elusive. I remember a MS62 sold a couple years ago at Charles Wander auction for 4500 (?) gbp hammer. And last month an au58 made 5200 gbp hammer at BSJ auction. I feel this year is much more rare than perceived around.. What are your thoughts on this coin?

- 1874 pops "pretty often" even if usually in very poor condition. At the same last BSJ there were 4!!!, the best one being an au55 and, quite surprisingly, 2 of them shown unknown die numbers (33 and 35 if i m not mistaken) while usually they show a 28 or 32. 

any input would be much appreciated

 

[Booky586]

A quick search shows they've turned up at The Coin Cabinet and London Coins, links below with sale prices:

1839

TCC https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots?search=1839+sovereign&limit=36

London Coins https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1839+Sovereign&searchtype=1

1841

TCC - No results

London Coins https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1841+Sovereign&searchtype=1

1874

TCC https://auctions.thecoincabinet.com/lots?search=1874+sovereign

London Coins https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=1874+Sovereign&searchtype=1

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, refero said:

good morning everyone, 

talking about London super rare shield sovereigns, i was trying to figure how often they do pop in market/auctions and if and how the rarity goes along with a decent grading.

-1841 is undoubtedly the rarest; i havent seen an at "at least" EF one for ages and i dont even want to know how much would a AU58/MS61 go for in an auction today

- 1839 is a pretty huge mistery to me; proof ones are way "more common" (not cheap tho!) than the "regular" bullion one (i guess at that time people saved the 1838 as the first Victorian gold coin). Proofs are actually sold on important auctions on regular basis while the bullion is much more elusive. I remember a MS62 sold a couple years ago at Charles Wander auction for 4500 (?) gbp hammer. And last month an au58 made 5200 gbp hammer at BSJ auction. I feel this year is much more rare than perceived around.. What are your thoughts on this coin?

- 1874 pops "pretty often" even if usually in very poor condition. At the same last BSJ there were 4!!!, the best one being an au55 and, quite surprisingly, 2 of them shown unknown die numbers (33 and 35 if i m not mistaken) while usually they show a 28 or 32. 

any input would be much appreciated

 

I had to Google "BSJ", then wondered why British Showjumping sold coins.

Are BS and SJA (St. James Auctions) one and the same?

 

[refero]

yes indeed i meant Baldwin of St James'

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, refero said:

yes indeed i meant Baldwin of St James'

.. and I meant to type BSJ instead of BS!

😎

[refero]

23 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

.. and I meant to type BSJ instead of BS!

😎

ok but apart from these BSJ-BS-SJA.... any concrete thoughts?

[LawrenceChard]

On 20/03/2022 at 10:07, refero said:

good morning everyone, 

talking about London super rare shield sovereigns, i was trying to figure how often they do pop in market/auctions and if and how the rarity goes along with a decent grading.

-1841 is undoubtedly the rarest; i havent seen an at "at least" EF one for ages and i dont even want to know how much would a AU58/MS61 go for in an auction today

- 1839 is a pretty huge mistery to me; proof ones are way "more common" (not cheap tho!) than the "regular" bullion one (i guess at that time people saved the 1838 as the first Victorian gold coin). Proofs are actually sold on important auctions on regular basis while the bullion is much more elusive. I remember a MS62 sold a couple years ago at Charles Wander auction for 4500 (?) gbp hammer. And last month an au58 made 5200 gbp hammer at BSJ auction. I feel this year is much more rare than perceived around.. What are your thoughts on this coin?

- 1874 pops "pretty often" even if usually in very poor condition. At the same last BSJ there were 4!!!, the best one being an au55 and, quite surprisingly, 2 of them shown unknown die numbers (33 and 35 if i m not mistaken) while usually they show a 28 or 32. 

any input would be much appreciated

 

 

On 20/03/2022 at 14:19, LawrenceChard said:

I had to Google "BSJ", then wondered why British Showjumping sold coins.

Are BS and SJA (St. James Auctions) one and the same?

 

 

21 minutes ago, refero said:

ok but apart from these BSJ-BS-SJA.... any concrete thoughts?

Not really, or I would have already commented.

You seem to be on the right track that 1841 is indeed the rarest of these.

Probably the 1874-L next, although we have had a few of them, and not in top grades.

I / we used to consider 1839 to be nothing very special, along with 1838, until all out stock of them sold out in s short period of time, then prices went relatively silly. Perhaps I had under-rated them, or possibly the demand from more collectors increased.

I don't really keep a track of auction records, and hardly ever buy at auction. There are often lots we see where we would happily have paid hammer price or more, but it is time-consuming travelling to view, not ideal bidding from photographs, and we would be one extra bidder, which would probably help to push the price up. 

For this reason, I am not instantly able to make meaningful comment about auction results, including proof versus non-proof.

I can say, though, that if major auction houses charge 15% to 20% commission, and similar buyers' premium, then the differential between what the seller receives, and the buyer pays, is vast. I often cannot understand why so many collections go through auction. I am not the only dealer to think this.

Perhaps we should set up Chard Coin Auctions.

😎

 

[Foster88]

10 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

Not really, or I would have already commented.

You seem to be on the right track that 1841 is indeed the rarest of these.

Probably the 1874-L next, although we have had a few of them, and not in top grades.

I / we used to consider 1839 to be nothing very special, along with 1838, until all out stock of them sold out in s short period of time, then prices went relatively silly. Perhaps I had under-rated them, or possibly the demand from more collectors increased.

I don't really keep a track of auction records, and hardly ever buy at auction. There are often lots we see where we would happily have paid hammer price or more, but it is time-consuming travelling to view, not ideal bidding from photographs, and we would be one extra bidder, which would probably help to push the price up. 

For this reason, I am not instantly able to make meaningful comment about auction results, including proof versus non-proof.

I can say, though, that if major auction houses charge 15% to 20% commission, and similar buyers' premium, then the differential between what the seller receives, and the buyer pays, is vast. I often cannot understand why so many collections go through auction. I am not the only dealer to think this.

Perhaps we should set up Chard Coin Auctions.

😎

 

This is very true and I’ve been to many auctions both in person and watched online, so I suppose I’ve been virtually present at the latter.

It’s wise, if you want something, bid first. You get the upper hand by being the lowest and first bidder. It’s not always easy but it can be done.

I think many coin collections that go through auctions are estate sales sadly. A person who has collected and loved their collection passes away and the family sells the entire collection in one auction. They didn’t pay for it, they don’t appreciate it the way their relative did so it all goes. This is just an example and presumption of most auction sales.

We all know different here but say, for example, an elderly relative of mine passed away and left a stamp collection to me. I wouldn’t have a clue what to do with it.

But I would do my research which sadly many don’t. So auction it is.

It’s a bit like Bargain Hunt, which really irritates me, people buying from antique dealers who bought at auction to then resell at auction. Nearly everyone makes a loss.

It’s such cr*p!!

Anyway, back on topic, everyone is watching the Gillick sovereigns of late and I can see why but few appreciate the George V sovereigns of which prices are increasing. (We’ve discussed this last year.)

Edited March 22, 2022 by Foster88

[refero]

thanks @LawrenceChardand @Foster88 for sharing your thoughts on that; 

it is true what you both say about auctions; consider that a lot of collectors (like me, i m italian living in italy) have very few chances to meet with UK coin dealers, to go to fairs, to actually see and assess personally coins in hand... and especially with Covid, travelling has become much more difficult, and sometimes unsafe..

online auctions are going to be more and more relevant in the future in my opinion, and slabs are perfectly matching with this trend. Its a guarantee (even if i got the impression that most people buy the slab with the magic number, rather than the coin within..)

going back to those 3 rare coins, and if i were to make a catalogue, i would re allign prices to what the market is saying/asking today. There has been a run for sovereigns in the last 2-3 years and victorian shields in high grade are getting scarcer and scarcer. 

[LawrenceChard]

18 minutes ago, refero said:

thanks @LawrenceChardand @Foster88 for sharing your thoughts on that; 

it is true what you both say about auctions; consider that a lot of collectors (like me, i m italian living in italy) have very few chances to meet with UK coin dealers, to go to fairs, to actually see and assess personally coins in hand... and especially with Covid, travelling has become much more difficult, and sometimes unsafe..

online auctions are going to be more and more relevant in the future in my opinion, and slabs are perfectly matching with this trend. Its a guarantee (even if i got the impression that most people buy the slab with the magic number, rather than the coin within..)

going back to those 3 rare coins, and if i were to make a catalogue, i would re allign prices to what the market is saying/asking today. There has been a run for sovereigns in the last 2-3 years and victorian shields in high grade are getting scarcer and scarcer. 

They are probably just being appreciated more!

Dove sei in italia?

[sovereignsteve]

22 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Perhaps we should set up Chard Coin Auctions.

I think that would be very good idea, you should look at the practicalities and platform costs. Staff time to receive, catalogue and check consigned coins. Postage and packing should be cost neutral.

From our POV, the more options and competition the better. TCC charge a straight 10% so if you could get below that?😉