Is this 1oz Scottsdale silver bar real?

[paulmerton]

I bought this on eBay from a UK seller. It was described as being in "very good" condition, but it seems to have quite a few scrapes on the edges. They clearly used a stock photo of a perfect bar rather than a photo of the bar they were actually selling. Ah well...

Anyway, my main concern is now whether it is real or not! I don't actually have any bars like this to compare it to, so I'm not sure whether the things I'm seeing here should raise any red flags. It passes the magnet and weight test, but the blobby bit on the rear edge and the colour of the scraped bits made me wonder whether it has been dipped or coated.

I've seen the other recent thread about a different Scottsdale bar, but it's the blobby solder-like bit that has got me concerned. It just doesn't look right to me, but then again I am very new to the world of silver and happy to learn from wizened experts who may have actually seen this sort of thing happening to real bars.

What do you think? Any obvious alarm bells here, or would I need an expert to assess it in person?

 

 

 

 

 

A closeup of the front lettering (ignore the incorrect date stamp on the screen):

 

The "blobby" bit on the back edge, which seems a different colour to the bar's rim it sits on:

 

One of the scrapes on the edge:

[BullionBob]

I have a number of these bars and at a glance it looks genuine. I think there is some tarnish on the corners, which indicates silver. Still, not ideal if the seller described the bar to being in excellent condition.

[paulmerton]

Thanks for your input, @BullionBob. Just realised I forgot to upload the photo of the bottom end. Here it is:

[CollectorNo1]

I'd like to know how he describes mint condition bullion??😲😲

[dangelo]

Hi @paulmerton,

I recently got a couple of these for the first time.  You have to be very careful because these are very very frequently faked.  I probably won't buy anymore.   I did all the tests too and mine turn out legit.  It's easier when you compare to other 1oz bars - the size is fairly standard so you will notice if the size or thickness is out.. so if weight and dimensions match and teh magnet tests (including sliding the magnet) are a pass then it should be good.  I also found this page and it raised my confience. 

https://www.fakebullion.com/index.php/component/k2/item/23-scottsdale-silver-1-ounce-lion-bar

The key think for me is the fakes have a mirror finish on the reverse behind the S patterns but the originals actually look worse in a more matte finish (lol).  

Anyway looking at your bar - it's in terrible condition so even if it's real (which it might be) I'd send it back to the seller anyway.  I don't think you want one of these without the premium niceness... if it's just scrap bullion then maybe fine.

One last note on packaging - because mine were still in the ori plastic that aslo boosted my confidence they are real, because I compared the plastic to pictures online and they matched the genuine packaging and didn't match the plastic some fakes come in.

 

[dangelo]

Some other 1oz bars to compare...

[Rugbyplayer]

Pick yourself up a wee rare earth magnet (neodymium) @paulmerton and see if she sticks to that sucker like glue. They are handy we things to have just for a quick check and they will pick out the poorer fakes for fun and a slide test will also give an inclination too. 

[paulmerton]

1 minute ago, Rugbyplayer said:

Pick yourself up a wee rare earth magnet (neodymium) @paulmerton and see if she sticks to that sucker like glue. They are handy we things to have just for a quick check and they will pick out the poorer fakes for fun and a slide test will also give an inclination too. 

Thanks for the suggestion; I'd already checked how it behaves with magnets though.

From what I can gather, most of the fakes aren't magnetic these days, and silver plated copper (for example) would also behave similarly when sliding because of the good induction.

I don't really have anything that I could measure its density with accurately (certainly not well enough to distinguish copper from silver) and as it's my only 1oz bar I don't have anything to compare it with. I'm tempted to buy one as a reference from a trusted source but even the Royal Mint doesn't seem to have at the moment! Does anyone here want to sell me one for a good price?

It's put me off buying this sort of thing from eBay, that's for sure!

[Rugbyplayer]

I'm almost positive someone was selling some bars recently on the forum and there were a few of the Scottsdales in there too. I'll have a little look and see if I can find the listing 👍🏻

[CollectorNo1]

The only way to know for sure is to shave the edge of the bar to ascertain what the base metal is....but you don't want to ruin a perfectly good silver bar if its genuine....or the most drastic way to be sure is saw it in half....I know people are turning in their graves now.....That's why I don't buy silver bars..so many fakes..unless you purchase from a reputable bullion dealer..but never buy from Ebay...its too much of a gamble....

[paulmerton]

3 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

The only way to know for sure is to shave the edge of the bar to ascertain what the base metal is....but you don't want to ruin a perfectly good silver bar if its genuine....or the most drastic way to be sure is saw it in half....I know people are turning in their graves now.....That's why I don't buy silver bars..so many fakes..unless you purchase from a reputable bullion dealer..but never buy from Ebay...its too much of a gamble....

There already looks to be enough scraped off the bottom edge to see what the base metal is, if I had the means to test it.

I should probably just return it anyway as it's clearly not in "very good condition", but I'm somewhat curious to find out for sure.

[CollectorNo1]

It does look bad....can you return it? Does the seller accept returns? If paid through PayPal you are covered..if you are not happy contact the seller..if no response log it with Ebay and PayPal...get your money back..

[Bigmarc]

15 minutes ago, Rugbyplayer said:

I'm almost positive someone was selling some bars recently on the forum and there were a few of the Scottsdales in there too. I'll have a little look and see if I can find the listing 👍🏻

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1oz-Solid-Silver-Scottsdale-Bar-Real-Or-Fake-Please-Read-Full-Description-/284225586598?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

 

Is that it?

[paulmerton]

30 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

It does look bad....can you return it? Does the seller accept returns? If paid through PayPal you are covered..if you are not happy contact the seller..if no response log it with Ebay and PayPal...get your money back..

The listing says the seller does not accept returns, but I'm pretty sure you can still request a return through eBay for items that arrive damaged or that are significantly not as described and seller still has to pay for the return postage even if they've said they do not accept returns. 

I've just had another idea for something I can readily test before I contemplate returning it... back soon

 

[CollectorNo1]

Even though a seller states.."no returns" you can get your money back..especially if you can prove its fake...Notifying Ebay and PayPal if you have used PayPal? to purchase this item....they will take over your complaint.....and 9/10 the seller will refund your money because they don't want any negative feed back to be posted on their site..also ebay will put a selling ban against them for a period of time...not always the rule as I have heard stories of buyers being screwed over buy Ebay and PP, but that is a rare occurance....

[paulmerton]

Here we go.... I suddenly realised I do have access to another nearly non-destructive testing process without having to buy anything.

I balanced the bar on a fingertip and struck it with a dampened titanium bar. Here's the frequency analysis of the ringing bar, as recorded through my laptop's built in microphone with the free Audacity sound recording/editing software:

The tallest peak is at 6348 Hz.

The one to its right is 10228 Hz, and the one to its left is 5856 Hz.

The big blob is just background noise, probably caused by my laptop, but the scale is logarithmic so that's not significant.

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret these results, as the expected sound frequency for an item made out of pure silver seems to depend on the size and shape as much as the material it's made of.

Does anyone know what frequency spectrum a genuine bar of this precise type should have - or even better, is anyone willing to volunteer trying the above on a known-genuine one?

 

[dangelo]

[Rugbyplayer]

 

https://www.thesilverforum.com/topic/52641-various-silver-bars/?do=findComment&comment=540984

[Rugbyplayer]

Found the buggers

Scottsdale bars here 👆🏻 @paulmerton

Not sure how much you paid on ebay but these would give you that direct comparison you're after.....and another piece of silver for the stack......win win no 🤷🏻‍♂️   😉

[Rugbyplayer]

@BullionMan89 see above, I know you had some in hand and for sale 👍🏻

[BullionMan89]

41 minutes ago, Rugbyplayer said:

@BullionMan89 see above, I know you had some in hand and for sale 👍🏻

Much appreciated, thank you

[paulmerton]

43 minutes ago, Rugbyplayer said:

Found the buggers

Scottsdale bars here 👆🏻 @paulmerton

Not sure how much you paid on ebay but these would give you that direct comparison you're after.....and another piece of silver for the stack......win win no 🤷🏻‍♂️   😉

Thanks!  It was less than £25 so I'm inclined to keep it - as long as it really is silver, of course

[paulmerton]

I have just received some bars from @BullionMan89, which I trust are genuine, so it's comparison time!

Here's a fresh ping test with the "suspect" bar:

And here's one with the (genuine) Scottsdale 1oz bar from @BullionMan89:

The x axis is the same, so overlaying them in an image editor shows the frequency spikes lining up fairly well:

This suggests to me that if at least one of the bars is real, then both must be.

So both are really silver.

I think I'm as satisfied as I can be now without drilling into the suspect bar, but there is one more interesting thing I noticed - there are several small differences between the designs on the two bars. Is it possible that the stamp used to manufacture these bars has changed at some point in time? I don't know how old my "suspect" bar is, but I would presume it's the older of the two. I'll see if I can get some good comparison photos to upload shortly.

 

[CollectorNo1]

Forgive my ignorance as I have never had access to the above testing technology.  The 1st graph shows your suspect bar and the 2nd shows the genuine bar on the ping test which both look very different? The third is the overlay of both tests which shows hardly any difference? So can you explain that to me please. I'm curious and interested..

Regards.

[paulmerton]

39 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Forgive my ignorance as I have never had access to the above testing technology.  The 1st graph shows your suspect bar and the 2nd shows the genuine bar on the ping test which both look very different? The third is the overlay of both tests which shows hardly any difference? So can you explain that to me please. I'm curious and interested..

Regards.

From what I understand, the thing that matters is that the big tall spikes all appear at the same positions along the x axis. It doesn't matter too much if there are lots of shorter (quieter) frequencies that don't line up. The y axis scale is logarithmic, so for example those big blobs of low frequency sounds on the left side of the graph are really insignificant. I'm fairly certain from the tallest peaks lining up that the suspect bar is genuine.

If you want to try this yourself, all you need to do is install Audacity (a free sound recorder/editor), record a ping, and then use the Frequency Analysis feature on part of the waveform. If you have a laptop it will probably have a microphone built in so you won't need to buy one specially. 

There are also mobile apps that automatically do this sort of thing for verifying coins. They check that the expected frequency spikes are present for a specific type of coin, but the one I tried didn't do bars.

Bear in mind I didn't know anything about this sort of stuff until earlier this week, so there may be some holes in my knowledge!