A Curious Journey Of a Coin From Auction To Auction

[CollectForFun]

On researching a few coins from the latest TCC auction I noticed a coin which appeared already twice in previous auctions this year and found it interesting enough to share this finding with you.

The coin in question is an 1844 Austrian ducat in an NGC slab. It was sold yesterday for £380+%, i.e. around £407 Link

This same coin was auctioned with TCC already in June when it sold for £440+%, i.e. around £472 Link

And further 3 months before that this coin appeared in an auction in Greece where it sold for €380+%, i.e. around €465 or £390 at historic FX rates Link

This coin is sufficiently numismatic so that its price shouldn't be so much affected by gold price changes over the time.

So what do you think - why is this coin on sale so often? Is the scratch so bad that noone wants it in their collection? Or maybe the buyer from the first TCC auction did not pay so it was put on sale again? Or is such a coin-flipping more common and only here it was easier to notice because the coin is so recognisable?

By the way, after taking into account TCC seller's fees, the sellers received £396 and £342, respectively, from the first and second TCC sale. So not really a profitable development for the coin owner(s)...

Edited September 29, 2022 by CollectForFun

[LawrenceChard]

On 29/09/2022 at 10:58, CollectForFun said:

A Curious Journey Of a Coin From Auction To Auction

On researching a few coins from the latest TCC auction I noticed a coin which appeared already twice in previous auctions this year and found it interesting enough to share this finding with you.

The coin in question is an 1844 Austrian ducat in an NGC slab. It was sold yesterday for £380+%, i.e. around £407 Link

This same coin was auctioned with TCC already in June when it sold for £440+%, i.e. around £472 Link

And further 3 months before that this coin appeared in an auction in Greece where it sold for €380+%, i.e. around €465 or £390 at historic FX rates Link

This coin is sufficiently numismatic so that its price shouldn't be so much affected by gold price changes over the time.

So what do you think - why is this coin on sale so often? Is the scratch so bad that noone wants it in their collection? Or maybe the buyer from the first TCC auction did not pay so it was put on sale again? Or is such a coin-flipping more common and only here it was easier to notice because the coin is so recognisable?

By the way, after taking into account TCC seller's fees, the sellers received £396 and £342, respectively, from the first and second TCC sale. So not really a profitable development for the coin owner(s)...

That looks like a good bit of research you have done, and thanks for your clear report about it.

Although I don't tune in to auctions results very closely, I am aware that for decades, some coins have appeared in multiple auctions numerous times in short periods. I don't know why this happens.

The scratch does not look so bad to me that I would reject buying it. I tend to accept coins for what and how they are rather than how I would ideally like them to be. 

The auctioneers charges remind me of Richard Lobel or Coincraft when he talks about selling to and buying from dealers often being more efficient and better for collectors and customers than using auctions. I largely agree with him. It sounds like the recent auction charges on this coin alone must have been in the region of £120 or more.

Perhaps I / we ought to make an open offer for the coin, of £360, for immediate payment.

If we buy it, we could offer it out for resale at £395, I am quite happy to accept a 10% profit opportunity, even if the coin sticks in stock, and fail to sell.

Alternatively, we could offer to loan it out to people for £10 per month.

😎

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[Darr3nG]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

we could offer to loan it out to people for £10 per month.

How much for a 1937 Proof Sov? Do I need to polish it, before returning?

[LawrenceChard]

18 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

How much for a 1937 Proof Sov? Do I need to polish it, before returning?

It's time you sent it back, you've had it for about 3 months now.

Don't worry about polishing all the new scratches off it, or you might wear through the gold plating!

😎

[SidS]

On 29/09/2022 at 13:55, LawrenceChard said:

That looks like a good bit of research you have done, and thanks for your clear report about it.

Although I don't tune in to auctions results very closely, I am aware that for decades, some coins have appeared in multiple auctions numerous times in short periods. I don't know why this happens.

The scratch does not look so bad to me that I would reject buying it. I tend to accept coins for what and how they are rather than how I would ideally like them to be. 

The auctioneers charges remind me of Richard Lobel or Coincraft when he talks about selling to and buying from dealers often being more efficient and better for collectors and customers than using auctions. A largely agree with him. It sounds like the recent auction charges on this coin alone must have been in the region of £120 or more.

Perhaps I / we ought to make an open offer for the coin, of £360, for immediate payment.

If we buy it, we could offer it out for resale at £395, I am quite happy to accept a 10% profit opportunity, even if the coin sticks in stock, and fail to sell.

Alternatively, we could offer to loan it out to people for £10 per month.

😎

 

I'd always buy from dealers, never from auctions - auction fees rarely make it worthwhile.

A few coins I've held a long while came with auction histories and yes they can change hands quite a bit in a short space of time.

[dicker]

I posted a month or two ago about a coin I had seen go from one auction to another - great that someone else takes a similar interest.

I can’t definitively work out why some coins are bought and sold several times over a relatively short period of time in different auctions.

1. My first thought about coins going from auction to auction was money laundering but I don’t think this is the case

2. Specialist dealers do need stock so buy from auction - this is unequivocally true

3. Market nuances - some years specific coins are “hot” and sell at auction well.  

I have see a couple of Sovs go through auction a couple of times for a very similar price.  Anyone want to help me understand why?

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 29/09/2022 at 10:58, CollectForFun said:

On researching a few coins from the latest TCC auction I noticed a coin which appeared already twice in previous auctions this year and found it interesting enough to share this finding with you.

The coin in question is an 1844 Austrian ducat in an NGC slab. It was sold yesterday for £380+%, i.e. around £407 Link

This same coin was auctioned with TCC already in June when it sold for £440+%, i.e. around £472 Link

And further 3 months before that this coin appeared in an auction in Greece where it sold for €380+%, i.e. around €465 or £390 at historic FX rates Link

This coin is sufficiently numismatic so that its price shouldn't be so much affected by gold price changes over the time.

So what do you think - why is this coin on sale so often? Is the scratch so bad that noone wants it in their collection? Or maybe the buyer from the first TCC auction did not pay so it was put on sale again? Or is such a coin-flipping more common and only here it was easier to notice because the coin is so recognisable?

By the way, after taking into account TCC seller's fees, the sellers received £396 and £342, respectively, from the first and second TCC sale. So not really a profitable development for the coin owner(s)...

The scratch/gouge  is a howler IMO......The CC photos are very over exposed these are from the NGC, still  not the best photos.

The price depends on the people bidding on the date, I've picked up some coins well under market value as I had zero people bidding against me, at other times no matter what I bid I got outbid as i'm up against multiple bidders  so thats how the day goes.  

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by GoldDiggerDave

[LawrenceChard]

On 01/10/2022 at 22:29, dicker said:

I posted a month or two ago about a coin I had seen go from one auction to another - great that someone else takes a similar interest.

I can’t definitively work out why some coins are bought and sold several times over a relatively short period of time in different auctions.

1. My first thought about coins going from auction to auction was money laundering but I don’t think this is the case

2. Specialist dealers do need stock so buy from auction - this is unequivocally true

3. Market nuances - some years specific coins are “hot” and sell at auction well.  

I have see a couple of Sovs go through auction a couple of times for a very similar price.  Anyone want to help me understand why?

1) I don’t think this is the case

2) Specialist dealers do need stock so buy from auction - Maybe, but most would prefer to buy direct from collectors. Auctions are an inefficient way to buy, unless thee is one specific coin you want, and even then, it takes time to browse through auction listings and catalogues, prepare bids. perhaps attend viewings, etc. If you manage to buy something which seems to be a bargain, you then discover you missed a scratch, hole, damage, or something.

3) Yes, there are "fashion" elements or hysteria.

4) You might have to try to ask the buyers or sellers. Perhaps bought, disappointed, decided to get rid?

Still a mystery to me.

I think it demonstrates that auctions are not a perfect marketplace.

😎

[GoldDiggerDave]

I’ve bought from auctions on a few occasions, London coin auctions are good to browse as you see coins they you don’t normally see and I do like the catalog they post out, it’s a nice touch and they let me telephone bid so you can hear what’s going down 🤣
 

Is there bargains?  Hell  yes!  My 1876 sovereign was a peach of a coin, also picked up some lots that had zero other people bidding ( my RMS Douro sovereigns) picked those up for a fraction over bullion,  came in a nice RM presentation and COA. (Just wanted a set with provenance so I get get them graded) makes for a nice keepsake. 

some lots are crazy over bid, to a point it makes no sense, however I wish I’d kept bidding on the 2 1989 4 sovereign sets a while back.

Suppose it’s like eBay, people use it because it’s there and they don’t know any different.  

 

 

[CollectForFun]

On 01/10/2022 at 23:29, dicker said:

I posted a month or two ago about a coin I had seen go from one auction to another - great that someone else takes a similar interest.

I can’t definitively work out why some coins are bought and sold several times over a relatively short period of time in different auctions.

1. My first thought about coins going from auction to auction was money laundering but I don’t think this is the case

2. Specialist dealers do need stock so buy from auction - this is unequivocally true

3. Market nuances - some years specific coins are “hot” and sell at auction well.  

I have see a couple of Sovs go through auction a couple of times for a very similar price.  Anyone want to help me understand why?

There's one other possibility - at least one auction house I know has hidden reserves on lots. So if you browse the auction site it may seem that a coin has sold as it had a bid but in fact it has not sold. That's how it can reappear in the subsequent auction...