The dreaded VAT

[Bogart]

Right time for another dopey question. I cannot see for the life of me why there is no VAT on silver if it is kept at some location as opposed to the bottom of my wardrobe. Do members who buy bars pay the VAT or are they happy to be stored in some vault?

Having done a little exercise say buying a 5kg bar for £4000 ex vat will entail laying out £4800 to pop in the wardrobe. Or pay £4000 and £10 a month storage.

To my mind that gives me 7 years storage before it would have been cheaper to store at home.

[Pete]

Some say - " if you cannot hold it then you don't own it ".
Most of us stackers hold physical coins and bars as a hobby, for fun, because we can, and some for a diversification in investments.
Buying metals to vault is a financial decision just like buying stocks and shares.
You could purchase other commodities like orange juice, palm oil, cocoa beans etc.
You trade in paper and never have the pleasure of holding and fondling your assets.

Rather than buy a 5kg bar which most likely would only ever be sold back to a dealer so 20% VAT is instantly lost, why not spend £4k on some bullion coins and 1 oz bars ? Okay we Brits pay the dreaded VAT but when reselling - not to dealers though - the tax is embedded in so you don't automatically loose. You will make a profit when spot rises - as it should and is long overdue - and / or you are selling perhaps a nicer collectible coin that has appreciated in value due to demand. Picking the coin that will rise in price is pure luck so just bank on spot rising and if you are lucky treat higher premiums as a bonus if reselling.

If you upgrade your membership you will find great bargains, literally daily in the trade section.
Without the upgrade you will 99.9% miss the best offers which tend to get snapped up instantly or most probably the same day before you even get the chance to view them. Most purchases from fellow SF members will be cheaper than anywhere else and you could theoretically flip your purchases and sell on sites like eBay and make a small profit especially with promotional sellers offers. I think most people prefer to hold their purchases for a while and definitely if spot moves up a good bit then many people will take some profit.

 

[sixgun]

If you bought VAT free silver from say Bullion by Post as you say you pay £10 a month storage. 
If for the sake of argument you bought a monster box of 500 Britannia coins you would pay £25.80 per coin. This is hardly a bargain as far as for Britannias if there is no VAT in the price.

i am inside the EU - i can buy a single Britannia coin from goldsilver.be for £22.27 each (if i pay in EUR which i would). Excluding delivery charges this is how much i pay for the coin in hand.

So it doesn't appear to me that these VAT free coins are much of a bargain. If you paid VAT on these coins they would work out at 1.2 x £25.80 = £30.96. You could take delivery at some point in the future and would have to pay VAT for what then becomes very expensive coins. If you sell back to Bullion by Post they pay you 97% of spot. - they'll pay you  0.97 x £17.39 = £16.86. 

It is clear these VAT free coins are a big loser - anyone who buys into this hasn't done their sums. 

i have hardly ever paid VAT on silver - i have bought from GS.be or European Mint.
My vaulted solution is Kinesis Money. The silver is around £17.50 an ounce at the moment. The silver is vaulted and there are no vaulting fees. You get a small yield on your silver. You can sell the silver at the click of a mouse on the Kinesis Exchange.
So for me these VAT free schemes are a total no no.

Edited September 24, 2022 by sixgun

[Pete]

8 minutes ago, sixgun said:

If you bought VAT free silver from say Bullion by Post as you say you pay £10 a month storage. 
If for the sake of argument bought a monster box of 500 Britannia coins you would pay £25.80 per coin. This is hardly a bargain as far as Britannias go. i am inside the EU - i can buy a single Britannia coin from goldsilver.be for £22.27 each (if i pay in EUR which i would).

Check this out - 

Full tubes of new Brits for £22.20 each with delivery included.
 

 

 

[sixgun]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Check this out - 

Full tubes of new Brits for £22.20 each with delivery included.

Which is why UK based members who are interested in buying more than a handful of coins should invest in premium membership.

[Bogart]

Thanks for the info. I can see that selling the items one would do better to sell privately or just stand the VAT loss.

I am old school, an old fart according to my kids, and using something like Kinesis is against my better judgement.

Bitcoin was going to be the millionaire maker of us all currently seems to have fallen off the edge of a cliff!

 

 

[Bogart]

Lokking into membership levels I note on the Gold Membership it states

' Bigger discounts for Gold Premium Members on TSF branded bars are rounds (on applicable TSF bars & rounds and when compared to Silver Premium Members discount) '

I have not got a clue what this means ie branded forum bars?

 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Bogart said:

Lokking into membership levels I note on the Gold Membership it states

' Bigger discounts for Gold Premium Members on TSF branded bars are rounds (on applicable TSF bars & rounds and when compared to Silver Premium Members discount) '

I have not got a clue what this means ie branded forum bars?

 

Maybe consider starting with the lowest cost membership until you cut your teeth and upgrade later if you see the benefits according to the degree of interest in stacking and following the vibes.

[sixgun]

@Pete has been here since the beginning of time and he's still a silver member. 

[LawrenceChard]

27 minutes ago, sixgun said:

If you bought VAT free silver from say Bullion by Post as you say you pay £10 a month storage. 
If for the sake of argument you bought a monster box of 500 Britannia coins you would pay £25.80 per coin. This is hardly a bargain as far as for Britannias if there is no VAT in the price.

i am inside the EU - i can buy a single Britannia coin from goldsilver.be for £22.27 each (if i pay in EUR which i would). Excluding delivery charges this is how much i pay for the coin in hand.

So it doesn't appear to me that these VAT free coins are much of a bargain. If you paid VAT on these coins they would work out at 1.2 x £25.80 = £30.96. You could take delivery at some point in the future and would have to pay VAT for what then becomes very expensive coins. If you sell back to Bullion by Post they pay you 97% of spot. - they'll pay you  0.97 x £17.39 = £16.86. 

It is clear these VAT free coins are a big loser - anyone who buys into this hasn't done their sums. 

i have hardly ever paid VAT on silver - i have bought from GS.be or European Mint.
My vaulted solution is Kinesis Money. The silver is around £17.50 an ounce at the moment. The silver is vaulted and there are no vaulting fees. You get a small yield on your silver. You can sell the silver at the click of a mouse on the Kinesis Exchange.
So for me these VAT free schemes are a total no no.

Why would anybody sell silver to Bullion by Post at 97%, when a leading Blackpool dealer would snatch your hand off at 100%.

Although I agree you are doing well to be able to buy silver Brits without VAT, due to the marginal schemes operated by a few European dealers, our prices are also a lot better than BbP

Quantity	Premium	Price Per Item (Exc. VAT)	Price Per Item (Inc. VAT)	Total (Inc. VAT)	Est UK Delivery
1	£3.60	£21.00	£25.20	£25.20	£3.50
5	£3.60	£21.00	£25.20	£126.00	£6.00
10	£3.60	£21.00	£25.20	£252.00	£6.00
25	£3.45	£20.85	£25.02	£625.50	£6.00
50	£3.30	£20.70	£24.84	£1,242.00	£11.00
100	£3.15	£20.55	£24.66	£2,466.00	£27.60
250	£2.85	£20.25	£24.30	£6,075.00	£30.60
500	£2.80	£20.20	£24.24	£12,120.00	£49.20
1000+	£2.75	£20.15	£24.18	£24,180.00	£98.40

This compares very favourably against BbP:

QTY	Net Per Unit	VAT Per Unit	Gross Per Unit
1+	£27.50	£5.50	£33.00
5+	£27.30	£5.46	£32.76
10+	£27.00	£5.40	£32.40
25+	£26.80	£5.36	£32.16
50+	£26.60	£5.32	£31.92
100+	£26.30	£5.26	£31.56
200+	£26.10	£5.22	£31.32
500+	£26.00	£5.20	£31.20
1000+	£25.80	£5.16	£30.96

In fact, our VAT inclusive prices are lower than their VAT exclusive prices!

Our offshore storage for silver is 0.6% per annum, with a £10 monthly minimum, plus VAT.

Without working it out again, I think it is fully cost effective when storing about £13,000+.

You could store silver for more than 30 years before the storage cost you more than the VAT.

It is all fully insured, allocated to the actual owners, and audited.

The dealers who outbid others to be at the top of the Google Adverts all seem to be happy to charge rip-off prices.

I don't know much about Kinesis, but with most "paper" or "account" products, you never actually own the silver, and in the event of a liquidation, you would stand as an ordinary creditor.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

40 minutes ago, Bogart said:

Thanks for the info. I can see that selling the items one would do better to sell privately or just stand the VAT loss.

I am old school, an old fart according to my kids, and using something like Kinesis is against my better judgement.

Bitcoin was going to be the millionaire maker of us all currently seems to have fallen off the edge of a cliff!

 

I have been, and still am, deeply sceptical of BitCoin and most other crypto currencies. 

😎

[Bogart]

14 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have been, and still am, deeply sceptical of BitCoin and most other crypto currencies. 

😎

You must have gone to the school as myself then.

[LawrenceChard]

5 minutes ago, Bogart said:

You must have gone to the school as myself then.

Yes, the School of Life!

😎

[Pete]

[sixgun]

50 minutes ago, Bogart said:

You must have gone to the school as myself then.

What was that? Approved school?

[Bogart]

Yes think was approved by Mr Quelch.

[SidS]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have been, and still am, deeply sceptical of BitCoin and most other crypto currencies. 

😎

They're just bubbles from what I can see. Just pure speculation.

[LawrenceChard]

15 minutes ago, SidS said:

They're just bubbles from what I can see. Just pure speculation.

99% hype, 1% hope!

😎

[James32]

2 hours ago, Bogart said:

You must have gone to the school as myself then.

He was probably your teacher lol.

[Agpanda]

3 hours ago, Bogart said:

Lokking into membership levels I note on the Gold Membership it states

' Bigger discounts for Gold Premium Members on TSF branded bars are rounds (on applicable TSF bars & rounds and when compared to Silver Premium Members discount) '

I have not got a clue what this means ie branded forum bars?

 

BYB makes some different silverbars that are TSF brand

 

[Agpanda]

3 hours ago, Bogart said:

Lokking into membership levels I note on the Gold Membership it states

' Bigger discounts for Gold Premium Members on TSF branded bars are rounds (on applicable TSF bars & rounds and when compared to Silver Premium Members discount) '

I have not got a clue what this means ie branded forum bars?

 

BYB makes some different silverbars that are TSF brand

@BackyardBullion

[richards]

On 24/09/2022 at 14:01, Bogart said:

Right time for another dopey question. I cannot see for the life of me why there is no VAT on silver if it is kept at some location as opposed to the bottom of my wardrobe. Do members who buy bars pay the VAT or are they happy to be stored in some vault?

Having done a little exercise say buying a 5kg bar for £4000 ex vat will entail laying out £4800 to pop in the wardrobe. Or pay £4000 and £10 a month storage.

To my mind that gives me 7 years storage before it would have been cheaper to store at home.

It's painful isn't it? buying new bullion just doesn't stack up in larger quantities with an extra 20% whacked on the top.

I've been trying to buy pre-47 at as close to spot as possible. I'm not even sure if that's a false economy - can any of the pro's give a guidance price as to the value of 50% scrap @ trade? 

If you're only in it for appreciation, another option for you may be allocated silver etf's. They claim to back every pound with physical metal, and the fee's are very low.

Personally I view PM's as a pretty-looking insurance to financial collapse. Which is why I'm personally not too keen on anything I can't touch, allocated or not.

[James32]

2 minutes ago, richards said:

It's painful isn't it? buying new bullion just doesn't stack up in larger quantities with an extra 20% whacked on the top.

I've been trying to buy pre-47 at as close to spot as possible. I'm not even sure if that's a false economy - can any of the pro's give a guidance price as to the value of 50% scrap @ trade? 

If you're only in it for appreciation, another option for you may be allocated silver etf's. They claim to back every pound with physical metal, and the fee's are very low.

Personally I view PM's as a pretty-looking insurance to financial collapse. Which is why I'm personally not too keen on anything I can't touch, allocated or not.

Not a problem in any sense of the word, but pre-47 scrap will always trade at spot or there abouts, you may even have to offer it at slightly under depending on quantity. 

[richards]

Good to know, many thanks.

[James32]

1 minute ago, richards said:

Good to know, many thanks.

But it does sell, a member recently moved around 10kgs of 50% on here in a couple of weeks. 

One thing I will add on the premium/vat side of .999, is that whatever premium you pay on here, you will get back when selling. 

Example, let's take an arbitrary spot price of £20 an oz. We'll say you can get an oz of 50% at £20 but an oz of .999 costs £26 ( seems logical to go with the 50?) Now let's pretend spot stays at £20 for a month, you need some quick cash and have to sell some silver. Your 50% will bring you spot but your. 999 will bring you £26....

So both get you back what you put in, but one appeals to a handful of forum members/buyers and the other appeals to a 100+ on any given day.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that when bought right ( usually from the forum, and as long as you have looked around at average prices/going rate, which will meanyou haven't overpaid) there's like an unwritten rule that your premium always comes back to you!! 

Hopefully that makes a little sense.